Europe. In or out?

[gaza09]

post 44 - long before i really commented.
nope, never implied that at all....please read post back as i have justified racist comment....
I said, we will never be a country who stops people entering who have criminal convictions (unless serious/terrorist) like US, Aus. not our way EU or no EU.

have a re-read.

Yes and that is what I said your wrong about, we DO stop non EU nationals from entering Britain if they have committed a crime that resulted in them spending four or more years in prison.
We cannot implement this UK government policy on EU nationals

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...of-criminality

[lymehoop]

I agree Rams, it's far more than this 'closing the borders' issue - far more than that.

Here's my take on it. We're at a crisis point in modern European history. We are facing not just the influx of millions of refugees and migrants from the Middle East (as well of course from elsewhere in the world and within Europe), but this huge interface, for want of a better world, between two cultures: The European culture and the Arabic/Islamic culture. How we deal with this will define what happens here and in the rest of the world for years to come.

For my money, we need to be united whilst this gargantuan process takes place. Being isolated (which we will be in many respects), is not how we need to be during this process. We need to remain at the heart of Europe and that means at the heart of the European union. We need to be leading and directing, not watching from the sidelines. Forget the impossible to work out economic potentials of IN or OUT for a moment, because this - in my opinion - is far bigger. It's about how we want the course of European culture and everything we believe in (making a large assumption that most of you like a form of social democracy that we have here and in Europe) to evolve. Europe can have an extremely beneficial influence on the process. At the moment it is floundering. PArt of the reason it's floundering is the UK referendum. This only adds to the uncertainty. By voting to stay IN Europe, we give the whole European idea a massive boost in the arm: we say: we stand for European culture, European values and European social democracy. How we vote and what happens in Europe will have a vast effect on how the near future of the West unfolds. Let's be at the centre of this, standing united in our values, rather than cutting ourselves off from it.

I am far from blind to the flaws in the EU. I am a big fan of sovereignty and am against unelected bureaucrats, but I think right now, the situation is bigger than that - and the flaws represent only one aspect of European Union, not the totality.

leading and directing,, don't make me laugh. Call me Dave had his pants pulled down by Merkel

[Bill]

post 44 - long before i really commented.
nope, never implied that at all....please read post back as i have justified racist comment....
I said, we will never be a country who stops people entering who have criminal convictions (unless serious/terrorist) like US, Aus. not our way EU or no EU.

have a re-read.

It is bad enough having line of government without having the Eu lot as well,this
applies whether tory labour or uncle tom cobley.The difference is they are all
career poiliticians self first party second and country a distant third

[Brian Wilson]

Odds here. Bookies def think stay at the moment - http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/...bership-result

[bakes8]

I'm married to a Polish lady, Love being European and in Europe but will 100% be voting OUT as I can't stand the idea of a Federal Europe and being ruled over by non elected officials. An absolute catastrophic Liberal ideal that is doomed to failure.

Anyone wanting to call me a racist had better back that up.

[TBLOCKRANGER]

On Europe, the Europa league final is live on BT sport even if you don't subscribers with them. It's free tonight on youtube or go to BT sport on sky #splendid still not sure how to vote though.

[stainrodisalegend]

you seem to have introduced a few myths of your own into this debate. If we were not to get access to the single market we could trade under WTO tariffs which at current levels of trading would be around £6billion, take into account our annual net fee to the EU is reported at £8billion we would still be better off even without a free trade deal with the EU.
Also Turkey are going to be given visa free access to the schengan area, which we are not apart of so they will not becoming here, and we will not have visa free travel there.

Nope, fraid not. You blithely say we cd carry on trading but we couldn't without tariffs or restrictions or paying a shed load of money. Some Brexiteers mention Norway, which is not in the EU - but has to pay more per capita to trade freely with the rest of Europe than we do. Other Brexiteers mention Canada - but their financial services have no tariff free access to the EU. The Brexiteers keep coming up with other examples - Albania is the latest! - but they still can't come up with a single country who can trade for free without tariffs.

Vast majority of Brexiteers says they want to remain in the single market - and if you do you can't control immigration. So what is it the out lot actually hope to achieve? Its just one long whinge saying they don't feel comfortable with the modern world.

As for Turkey you admit they won't be coming here - maybe you need to correct your Brexiteer friend who made the claim that they would.

[stainrodisalegend]

Sunderland making more cars than Italy says it all . Nissan won't have the balls to stop trading whether we're in or out. Besides the money given to Brussels from us the tax payers can start to look after our own economy . People like Cameron are panicking because they're greedy kanntss who couldn't give a monkey about anybody but themselves. The budget has less lies if we vote out ,and the pennies won't add up!

No mate, of course Nissan won't stop trading. They will just move their factory to Eastern Europe where they can pay workers much less and still have access to the European market without paying tariffs.
No fan of Cameron, but this decision is much bigger than any one politician.

[gaza09]

Nope, fraid not. You blithely say we cd carry on trading but we couldn't without tariffs or restrictions or paying a shed load of money. Some Brexiteers mention Norway, which is not in the EU - but has to pay more per capita to trade freely with the rest of Europe than we do. Other Brexiteers mention Canada - but their financial services have no tariff free access to the EU. The Brexiteers keep coming up with other examples - Albania is the latest! - but they still can't come up with a single country who can trade for free without tariffs.

Vast majority of Brexiteers says they want to remain in the single market - and if you do you can't control immigration. So what is it the out lot actually hope to achieve? Its just one long whinge saying they don't feel comfortable with the modern world.

As for Turkey you admit they won't be coming here - maybe you need to correct your Brexiteer friend who made the claim that they would.

You seem to have missed the part of my post which explained if we didn't negotiate access to the single market on favourable terms, we could carry on trading using the World trade organisations set tariffs. If we apply the set tariff rate to our current trade with the EU it equates to roughly £6billon, which is £2billion less then our annual net contribution to the EU. So even in the worst case scenario we are better off out of the EU.

As for turkey it was you who seemed to confuse them getting visa free access within the schengan zone, with them being allowed to come here. It is also worth mentioning Cameron, Merkel and the European Commission ( that's the unelected bureaucrats who have the sole power to legislate EU law) are all in favour of fast tracking Turkeys admission into the EU

[gaza09]

No mate, of course Nissan won't stop trading. They will just move their factory to Eastern Europe where they can pay workers much less and still have access to the European market without paying tariffs.
No fan of Cameron, but this decision is much bigger than any one politician.

Yes because these Eastern European countries have the skilled workforce required don't they?
Also why did the EU help fund the relocation of fords Southampton plant to turkey?
They're not in the EU (yet) but it doesn't stop them from selling the ford transit into the single market.
All these arguments are nonsese, business doesn't need a political union to facilitate trade, what drives trade is consumers wanting the product you have to sell.
China and the USA have no trade deal with the EU but they sell more into the single market then we do

[brightonr]

With regard to immigration, not sure that anyone wants to prevent people coming here. Simply a case of wanting those with the right skills who won't be a burden on the state. Surely it should be the right of any nation to decide who comes in and who doesn't.

Economically, there will be those that will be better off and those that will suffer, whatever we decide. And as sure as night follows day, it will sort itself out over time. Those politicians claiming that it will be a financial disaster, or those claiming the economy will miraculously improve are naive at best, as they have absolutely no idea how things will pan out. They are simply trying to frighten people into their way of thinking, which is pretty disgraceful bearing in mind the importance of such a decision.

Europe will suffer every bit as much by our leaving, as we would. However, there doesn't seem to be many ways that they could benefit.

I say let them suffer. They will have brought it all upon themselves by attempting to force economic and political union on people that never voted for it, don't want it and in all likelihood won't see any more of it.

We on the other hand, can look forward to being responsible for our own futures. The EU have undoubtedly been responsible for some good. Just as they have been for some of the nonsense that has arisen.

Ultimately, self determination should be the way forward for any nation, not just ours. And we certainly should never have laws thrust upon us by those we haven't directly elected and know nothing about.

[Stanley]

21 YEARS now since the EU last signed off their accounts: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-spending.html

[scuberry]

21 YEARS now since the EU last signed off their accounts: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-spending.html

Why would any of you "IN" brigade want to sign away our country to these faceless burocrats is beyond me,this article says it all about how they run affairs.

Stainrodisalegend as far as i see it your arguments have been totally shot to pieces by gaza09 , brigthonr and now stanley, vote IN and you might as well ask to be put in prison and they throw away the key,because there is no reprieve after, they will rape our country of its rights :o(

[gaza09]

If anyone is interested this documentary is an eye opener on the subject

https://youtu.be/eYqzcqDtL3k

[lymehoop]

Britain has become like Wandsworth Prison. Over-run, out of control and unable to do anything about it. Vote Out