The Rooney Rule

[Awin]

Why Nasser? And I'd appreciate it if you could show me the evidence, like you have failed to do so far.



Started to read that, but to be honest, found it worrying. Just where does this obsession for quotas and targets come from?
Surely you don't have to be Einstein to work out that saying we should have "20% BME" as a target is exactly the same as saying that "regardless of ability, 20% of jobs should not be made available to white british people".

I'm perfectly happy with 3.5%. I'd be happy with 20%. And I'd be just as happy if it were 50%. All I'm concerned about is that whoever gets whatever job, has got it for a football reason, not because they are perceived to be a minority group.

It's exactly this type of thing that creates problems rather than solves them. I'm sorry, but someone's colour is irrelevant to me and I would guess to almost everyone on this forum, fortunately. This being the case, I would love to see the evidence of where clubs have discriminated against a potential manager or coach because of their colour. I would have thought if there were any, the papers would have picked it up for us all to see.

No one has suggested a quota of jobs for black managers but merely opening up the interview process

Historically there was limited opportunity for black players until clubs with less finances turned to black players as they were comparatively cheaper - over time numbers increased within the game,

As had been pointed out previously there are limited ways of assessing manager ability and historically many black ex players who wanted to manage found jobs hard to come by. Quoting soccernomics again :

The issue hit Britain only when the first generation of black players began to retire (it being a longstanding article of faith in football that only ex-players had what it took to become managers). The former England international Luther Blissett, who as a player had made that ill-fated transfer to Milan, applied for 22 manager jobs in the 1990s. He did not get a single interview. Stella Orakwue, who recounts his story in her 1998 book, Pitch Invaders , concludes, ‘I feel a British black managing a Premiership team could be a very long way off.’ Indeed, it was not until 2008, ten years after she wrote this, that Blackburn gave Paul Ince a chance. After Ince’s appointment, John Barnes, who himself had struggled to get work as a manager, still maintained, ‘I believe the situation for black managers is like it was for black players back in the 1970s.’ Ince lasted less than six months at Blackburn. He hasn’t had a chance in the Premier League since.

[QPRDave]

Why Nasser? And I'd appreciate it if you could show me the evidence, like you have failed to do so far.



Started to read that, but to be honest, found it worrying. Just where does this obsession for quotas and targets come from?
Surely you don't have to be Einstein to work out that saying we should have "20% BME" as a target is exactly the same as saying that "regardless of ability, 20% of jobs should not be made available to white british people".

I'm perfectly happy with 3.5%. I'd be happy with 20%. And I'd be just as happy if it were 50%. All I'm concerned about is that whoever gets whatever job, has got it for a football reason, not because they are perceived to be a minority group.

It's exactly this type of thing that creates problems rather than solves them. I'm sorry, but someone's colour is irrelevant to me and I would guess to almost everyone on this forum, fortunately. This being the case, I would love to see the evidence of where clubs have discriminated against a potential manager or coach because of their colour. I would have thought if there were any, the papers would have picked it up for us all to see.

Yeah good post Brighton. I'm no lover of the pc squadron, but I'm no racist. These things must be done on ability, as should all jobs.
I think your point that if we introduce this ruling and say after 20 jobs come up and say no black applicant gets employed, can you imagine those black lawyers crowd?

[brightonr]

QPR have done an absolutely incredible job of it but it doesn't hide the flaws of the other clubs. Thinking that there isn't prejudice in the game any more is like covering your eyes to the blatant issues within the sport. This is an issue that is extremely easy to deal with. The fact is, that implementing the rooney rule will have almost no negative effects to the sports. Clubs may interview a token candidate of course, but many clubs will open their application process to many talented people who didn't have the door open to them in the first place.

Just one extra point, there is a very big point that managers with little playing experience or managers who don't use their playing experience as benchmarks for their management experience tend to be the better managers. Arsene Wenger, Sir Alex, Mourinho are some examples of managers who had limited exposure as players to top teams but used qualifications and non-playing knowledge to become some of the greatest managers of all time. The reason for that is because they were brought into jobs for their qualifications over their playing experience. Very few amazing ex pros make amazing managers. So the idea that Ned, Richards etc show the skills required to become managers is nonsense. The fact is that until people do their work and reading and learn the ropes, any playing experience is only going to affect their knowledge of how to deal with players who are upset for example.

Why Nasser? And I'd appreciate it if you could show me the evidence, like you have failed to do so far.

100% agree and something I am very proud of.

If you want to understand more about the issue then this certainly lays all the information out clearly.

http://http://www.farenet.org/wp-con...-one-voice.pdf

Started to read that, but to be honest, found it worrying. Just where does this obsession for quotas and targets come from?
Surely you don't have to be Einstein to work out that saying we should have "20% BME" as a target is exactly the same as saying that "regardless of ability, 20% of jobs should not be made available to white british people".

I'm perfectly happy with 3.5%. I'd be happy with 20%. And I'd be just as happy if it were 50%. All I'm concerned about is that whoever gets whatever job, has got it for a football reason, not because they are perceived to be a minority group.

It's exactly this type of thing that creates problems rather than solves them. I'm sorry, but someone's colour is irrelevant to me and I would guess to almost everyone on this forum, fortunately. This being the case, I would love to see the evidence of where clubs have discriminated against a potential manager or coach because of their colour. I would have thought if there were any, the papers would have picked it up for us all to see.

[nasser95]

I think maybe his point was that there are enough real problems to worry about in football, rather than to manufacture one for the sake of it.

Our club is two thirds owned by dark skinned Malaysians. One third by dark skinned Indians.

We have a white American CEO.

Our DOF is black british, as is the first team manager. Both Paul Furlong and Paul Hall, the fellas in charge of our younger sides are too.

Certainly as far as QPR are concerned, there cannot be even the slightest hint of a perception of racism. I'd say that is good, but would prefer to regard it as just the way it is. Les and Chris have not been prominent before, as they have been performing other roles and performing them well. In doing so, they have made themselves an attractive proposition for their current roles by gaining years of experience. This will surely happen elsewhere, just as it has done in all other walks of life. Really no need to look for problems where none exist. I'm not for a moment saying that there may not have been instances in the past, because there will have been. But there will have been in most walks of life. Fortunately, things have evolved sufficiently to stamp this sort of prejudice out.

QPR have done an absolutely incredible job of it but it doesn't hide the flaws of the other clubs. Thinking that there isn't prejudice in the game any more is like covering your eyes to the blatant issues within the sport. This is an issue that is extremely easy to deal with. The fact is, that implementing the rooney rule will have almost no negative effects to the sports. Clubs may interview a token candidate of course, but many clubs will open their application process to many talented people who didn't have the door open to them in the first place.

Just one extra point, there is a very big point that managers with little playing experience or managers who don't use their playing experience as benchmarks for their management experience tend to be the better managers. Arsene Wenger, Sir Alex, Mourinho are some examples of managers who had limited exposure as players to top teams but used qualifications and non-playing knowledge to become some of the greatest managers of all time. The reason for that is because they were brought into jobs for their qualifications over their playing experience. Very few amazing ex pros make amazing managers. So the idea that Ned, Richards etc show the skills required to become managers is nonsense. The fact is that until people do their work and reading and learn the ropes, any playing experience is only going to affect their knowledge of how to deal with players who are upset for example.

[Stanley]

100% agree and something I am very proud of.

If you want to understand more about the issue then this certainly lays all the information out clearly.

http://http://www.farenet.org/wp-con...-one-voice.pdf

Thanks Maido. I've fixed the link for you: http://www.farenet.org/wp-content/up...-one-voice.pdf

[Maidohoops]

Certainly as far as QPR are concerned, there cannot be even the slightest hint of a perception of racism.

100% agree and something I am very proud of.

If you want to understand more about the issue then this certainly lays all the information out clearly.

http://http://www.farenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/We-speak-with-one-voice.pdf

[Kirill]

Attempt of humour isn't always required.

Sometimes it does turn into attempt on humour

[brightonr]

This right here is what institutional racism is. Why can a black manager not also be British? In fact most current ones are, so it could very easily be argued that the Rooney rule would increase the opportunity for British managers.

I think maybe his point was that there are enough real problems to worry about in football, rather than to manufacture one for the sake of it.

Our club is two thirds owned by dark skinned Malaysians. One third by dark skinned Indians.

We have a white American CEO.

Our DOF is black british, as is the first team manager. Both Paul Furlong and Paul Hall, the fellas in charge of our younger sides are too.

Certainly as far as QPR are concerned, there cannot be even the slightest hint of a perception of racism. I'd say that is good, but would prefer to regard it as just the way it is. Les and Chris have not been prominent before, as they have been performing other roles and performing them well. In doing so, they have made themselves an attractive proposition for their current roles by gaining years of experience. This will surely happen elsewhere, just as it has done in all other walks of life. Really no need to look for problems where none exist. I'm not for a moment saying that there may not have been instances in the past, because there will have been. But there will have been in most walks of life. Fortunately, things have evolved sufficiently to stamp this sort of prejudice out.

[Maidohoops]

There is a distinct prejudice against indigenous players. Let's start with anti British before anti anything else. How does the Rooney rule reflect home nation players? It doesn't.

If there is a Rooney rule for managers there should be a Van Nistlerooy rule for home grown talent.

This right here is what institutional racism is. Why can a black manager not also be British? In fact most current ones are, so it could very easily be argued that the Rooney rule would increase the opportunity for British managers.

[californiahoop]

Attempt of humour isn't always required.

[72bus]

Good debate folks, I personally don't see any candidates for current managerial roles, this I suspect is because of lack the of black role models in the past, which might touch on historical racism, but moving on.

Our very own Nedum, an educated, articulate young man, Micah Richards, a property magnate, Henry, Hasslebank, to name a few maybe future managers?

The above and probably several more I haven't mention have conducted themselves in a manner that suggest they could translate there football knowledge into the managerial arena?

Things take time to evolve, slowly, but things do change, I still remember Viv Anderson getting his first cap.

you forgot to mention clinton morrison

[californiahoop]

Good debate folks, I personally don't see any candidates for current managerial roles, this I suspect is because of lack the of black role models in the past, which might touch on historical racism, but moving on.

Our very own Nedum, an educated, articulate young man, Micah Richards, a property magnate, Henry, Hasslebank, to name a few maybe future managers?

The above and probably several more I haven't mention have conducted themselves in a manner that suggest they could translate there football knowledge into the managerial arena?

Things take time to evolve, slowly, but things do change, I still remember Viv Anderson getting his first cap.

[Stanley]

Ok, so as you're now broadening it out, for argument's sake let us assume an organisation is institutionally racist (any organisation, not just a footballing body). How would you then tackle that problem (which is what Rooney's Rule is attempting to achieve)?

With education.

Education alone...with no legislation of any sort? Do you honestly think that's realistic?

I don't know Stanley.

Personally I would rather avoid affirmative action policies in football, and would much rather see someone figure out a way to make the manager market as transparent as the player market, and then the issue would solve itself.

I agree that this should be the way forward 1QPRDK. It's where creative minds and think tanks need to focus energies towards the solution.

I also agree that some of the disagreements in this debate have been more about definitions than the principles and ethics of the issue.

[1QPRDK]

Sorry Nasser, but you're just repeating the same incoherent argument over again.

As for the opportunities being limited, that would be the case for any ethnicity, all the time clubs are looking for either "names", successful track records or experience. It simply isn't racism. It's just the way things are. This is football. Professional sport. Recruitment decisions will always be subjective.

Anyway, no point in me trying to explain if you can't see the obvious. My main objections are that the rule specifically attempts to circumnavigate the way things have always been done and probably always will be. If you want to see that as racism, then I'm afraid racism is here to stay. But the vast majority of us know it isn't racism. And I suspect if we thought for one moment it was, we would have plenty to say about that.

Trust me on this. Such a rule, if implemented over here, would cause far more division than it would ever solve. These things, whilst probably thought of with best intentions, are ill advised.

Seems to me that you guys are disagreeing on a couple of points.

First issue is the meaning of the terms "institutional racism". Seems that nasser is relying on an interpretation where it is the net effects of the institutions in place such as: The term "institutional racism" describes societal patterns that have the net effect of imposing oppressive or otherwise negative conditions against identifiable groups on the basis of race or ethnicity. My guess is that brighton would reserve the term "racism" for situations where racism is the cause of the discrimination, ie. that someone is actively chosen or not because of the colour of their skin.

Both of you could be right, because my guess is that there will be more of the first type than the second type of racism around.

The funny thing with the Rooney rule is that it in effect creates more of the second type of racism, like ds pointed out earlier, while trying to create less of the first type. And this probably has something to do with the second disagreement of whether or not the Rooney rule is seen as a good thing.

Personally I would rather avoid affirmative action policies in football, and would much rather see someone figure out a way to make the manager market as transparent as the player market, and then the issue would solve itself.

[Jimmy Floyd Rabbit]

Can I just say its a law of averages and nothing else.

Cheers