The Rooney Rule

[Awin]

It's important to note that many times American Football clubs will interview a minority candidate to satisfy the rule and then hire their preferred choice shortly thereafter.

Many times is the key point but not always.

Also in NFL many black managers have since been hired due to the Rooney rule and been successful

[QPRNY]

I think it's about time this was properly debated, particularly given the ethnicity of QPR board members, DoF and head coach.

Reading this forum, it seems there's some misunderstanding about the The Rooney Rule. It is certainly not that a quota of job applicants from ethnic minorities have to actually be given jobs; but that a quota must at least be given the opportunity of a job interview.

The Rooney Rule was first introduced in the US for American Football in 2003 due to findings of institutional racism within the sport's industry WRT the hiring and firing of coaches from varied ethnic backgrounds.

Who is to say that similar types of issues have not been commonplace in the UK within the football industry? I'm white and don't work in the industry so I couldn't comment with any absolute authority. But we all know that both Les Ferdinand and Chris Ramsey are on record as saying they've had direct experience of it, having witnessed it, as well as being on the receiving end of it, and not just during their playing careers.

No polls needed for now, just a debate.

It's important to note that many times American Football clubs will interview a minority candidate to satisfy the rule and then hire their preferred choice shortly thereafter.

[Stanley]

Any policy that requires decisions to be made based on your race or ethnic background is racist. It is as simple as that. The so called "Rooney Rule" is a racist rule.

Ok, so as you're now broadening it out, for argument's sake let us assume an organisation is institutionally racist (any organisation, not just a footballing body). How would you then tackle that problem (which is what Rooney's Rule is attempting to achieve)?

[nasser95]

Sorry Nasser, but you are so wrong.

Why is it only football that is supposedly "institutionally racist"? Or is it only the position of "manager" that it applies to?

I expect you do your own job perfectly well. And I expect you were given the opportunity because you were seen as a good candidate and well suited to the role.

Were you interviewed as a token gesture and got lucky, or did you just impress at the interview? My money would be on the latter.

And as I pointed out on another thread, what would happen if a "black man" were to be interviewed for every single job in future and failed to get the job?

Would we be allowed to assume that the hirer thought that there was a better candidate, or would we need to look for another conspiracy theory to account for it? Oh yes, I can see it now. The "token black" selected for interview was only chosen because his credentials would not be as good as one of the other interviewees. Obviously done to avoid hiring a black mananger!

And furthermore, would that indicate that black managers were no good, simply because they were overlooked in favour of someone else. Well no, of course it wouldn't.

As almost everyone on here agrees, the job should and does get given to the person those responsible for the appointments feel to be the best candidate. Notwithstanding the fact that in this industry, very often there is no interview process at all.

I'd be more concerned about whether or not those hiring managers had any idea at all to be fair. Let's face it, our previous managerial recruits were hardly inspiring, were they?

You would be overall right if your initial statement wasn't completely off the ball. The fact is that black managers are not interviewed in the first place. Many talented potential managers don't get the chance to impress because no one offers them an interview. The issue is simply that the process is done - as Awin stated - simply to find someone to front the club. To be the face of the club.

[dsqpr]

Any policy that requires decisions to be made based on your race or ethnic background is racist. It is as simple as that. The so called "Rooney Rule" is a racist rule.

[nasser95]

Nasser you beat me to it

Soccernomics reveals managers in fact gave very little effect upon team results and that in The overriding majority of occasions are chosen
a) because they are ex pros
b) they are or savvy
c) they look the part
d) to appease the fans

Little is go do with actual statistical ability thus clubs hire people that look like previously successful managers which in large part are white.

Interestingly managers like ruud gullit were more viewed as Dutch than black when appointed.

100 percent correct.

[Awin]

Nasser you beat me to it

Soccernomics reveals managers in fact have very little effect upon team results and that in the overriding majority of occasions are chosen

a) because they are ex pros
b) they are pr savvy
c) they look the part
d) to appease the fans

Little is go do with actual statistical ability thus clubs hire people that look like previously successful managers which in large part are white.

Interestingly managers like ruud gullit were more viewed as Dutch than black when appointed.

[brightonr]

Sorry Nasser, but you are so wrong.

Why is it only football that is supposedly "institutionally racist"? Or is it only the position of "manager" that it applies to?

I expect you do your own job perfectly well. And I expect you were given the opportunity because you were seen as a good candidate and well suited to the role.

Were you interviewed as a token gesture and got lucky, or did you just impress at the interview? My money would be on the latter.

And as I pointed out on another thread, what would happen if a "black man" were to be interviewed for every single job in future and failed to get the job?

Would we be allowed to assume that the hirer thought that there was a better candidate, or would we need to look for another conspiracy theory to account for it? Oh yes, I can see it now. The "token black" selected for interview was only chosen because his credentials would not be as good as one of the other interviewees. Obviously done to avoid hiring a black mananger!

And furthermore, would that indicate that black managers were no good, simply because they were overlooked in favour of someone else. Well no, of course it wouldn't.

As almost everyone on here agrees, the job should and does get given to the person those responsible for the appointments feel to be the best candidate. Notwithstanding the fact that in this industry, very often there is no interview process at all.

I'd be more concerned about whether or not those hiring managers had any idea at all to be fair. Let's face it, our previous managerial recruits were hardly inspiring, were they?

[Macca]

blacks applying for vacant managers jobs are complaining, justifiably, that they are not even getting an interview, that clearly is not right

I agree if their good enough they should be in with a fair shout of getting the job.

[QPR Richard]

With the owners of the clubs in this country now from all over the world, why would there be 'institutionalized racism' from within football? Sounds like a 70's and 80's problem to me.

Best people for the best job... And best interviewees for the best jobs. If any owner found guilty of racism then yeh, throw the book at the clowns. But interviewing to a quota is racism itself imo.

Agree with that.

[bakes8]

With the owners of the clubs in this country now from all over the world, why would there be 'institutionalized racism' from within football? Sounds like a 70's and 80's problem to me.

Best people for the best job... And best interviewees for the best jobs. If any owner found guilty of racism then yeh, throw the book at the clowns. But interviewing to a quota is racism itself imo.

[MattyRangers]

The thing about it Matty is that this isn't what happens. Again, highly recommend reading Soccernomics but a bit of a summary of it is that football is so stupidly different from other professions. Managers don't go through the application process that people in industry go through. Managers are generally chosen as crowd pleasers. These are people who 'look' the part most and unfortunately, due to the institutional racism within the sport, Black managers have a much harder time getting past that original stage. Their qualifications don't matter because they never get to that stage of having their qualifications checked.

Fair enough Nasser I don't knowmuch about the managerial appointment process so can't argue with what you said there.

[nasser95]

What they said.

John Barnes is a price pr1ck and is out to look to be offended wherever he can. Has a whole potato on his shoulder. Rooney rule is a load of rubbish IMHO, why on earth should there be a rule enforced to dictate that you HAVE to consider ethnics for a job. If it happens that there are yellow, black, brown, white & blue people that look like good candidates, so be it. If not, so what, you shouldn't be forced to consider somebody just because of their ethnic origin.

Not that I am involved in the industry at all, but I find it very very very hard to believe that club owners sit round a table when considering their next manager and say "he looks a great gaffer but we can't interview him, he is black". No way does that happen.

The thing about it Matty is that this isn't what happens. Again, highly recommend reading Soccernomics but a bit of a summary of it is that football is so stupidly different from other professions. Managers don't go through the application process that people in industry go through. Managers are generally chosen as crowd pleasers. These are people who 'look' the part most and unfortunately, due to the institutional racism within the sport, Black managers have a much harder time getting past that original stage. Their qualifications don't matter because they never get to that stage of having their qualifications checked.

[MattyRangers]

Best person for the job. End of.

Always makes me laugh to hear John Barnes bang on about this. He was given a plum job at Celtic and ####ed it up, then Tranmere Rovers gave him a go and he royally ####ed that up as well. Plenty have had an opportunity...Barnes..Ince..Alexander..Powell, I don't see an issue if your good enough.

What they said.

John Barnes is a price pr1ck and is out to look to be offended wherever he can. Has a whole potato on his shoulder. Rooney rule is a load of rubbish IMHO, why on earth should there be a rule enforced to dictate that you HAVE to consider ethnics for a job. If it happens that there are yellow, black, brown, white & blue people that look like good candidates, so be it. If not, so what, you shouldn't be forced to consider somebody just because of their ethnic origin.

Not that I am involved in the industry at all, but I find it very very very hard to believe that club owners sit round a table when considering their next manager and say "he looks a great gaffer but we can't interview him, he is black". No way does that happen.

[nasser95]

Again, I'm going to recommend to read Soccernomics because there is a full chapter which proves the absolute institutional racism within the sport that limits the potential of black managers getting jobs.