The Rooney Rule

[Kirill]

Definitely veered off the QPR section material now.

[Hove Ranger]

[dsqpr]

Just because nobody has gathered data to show a correlation does not mean a correlation does not exist! The correlation either exists or it doesn't, regardless of whether we gather data to show it. If we suspect two things are correlated and think that confirming it would provide some benefit, we gather data to show it. You are showing a rather astonishing lack of capacity to understand this rather simple point.

Edit: And since you seem to be having trouble grasping the key point I have made above, I'll repeat it here:
My understanding is that you are saying there is institutional racism because black managers are statistically under represented in managerial jobs (in other words, you are saying that the statistical under representation of black managers proves institutional racism).

I am saying that the statistical under representation of black managers does NOT prove institutional racism because there is another possible explanation: that black managers (on the average) simply aren't as good as white ones (just as basketball players under 6 feet tall simply aren't as good as ones who are taller). I don't know that to be the case because nobody has gathered data to try to establish a correlation between race and ability as a football manager. I'm just saying that anybody with an open mind must accept that it is POSSIBLE until proven otherwise. Which proves that any statistical under representation of black managers is NOT proof of institutional racism.

Feel free to post a rebuttal to this anytime nasser. Rather than just saying that I don't understand statistical analysis (which is not true!)!

[dsqpr]

You must have some issue trying to validate the covering of your eyes to a very valid problem that exists, as well as your lack of understanding of statistical analysis.

Ha ha ha, so there is a problem because you say so?! And I would say it is VERY clear from the discussion above that you are the one having trouble interpreting the numbers.

As the rather amusing saying goes: you use statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts... for support rather than illumination.

[nasser95]

More rubbish!


Just because nobody has gathered data to show a correlation does not mean a correlation does not exist! The correlation either exists or it doesn't, regardless of whether we gather data to show it. If we suspect two things are correlated and think that confirming it would provide some benefit, we gather data to show it. You are showing a rather astonishing lack of capacity to understand this rather simple point.

You must have some issue trying to validate the covering of your eyes to a very valid problem that exists, as well as your lack of understanding of statistical analysis.

[dsqpr]

I didn't actually contradict myself.

More rubbish!

There is no correlation on the basis that there isn't enough data to give an actual suggestion that there could be one.

Just because nobody has gathered data to show a correlation does not mean a correlation does not exist! The correlation either exists or it doesn't, regardless of whether we gather data to show it. If we suspect two things are correlated and think that confirming it would provide some benefit, we gather data to show it. You are showing a rather astonishing lack of capacity to understand this rather simple point.

Edit: And since you seem to be having trouble grasping the key point I have made above, I'll repeat it here:
My understanding is that you are saying there is institutional racism because black managers are statistically under represented in managerial jobs (in other words, you are saying that the statistical under representation of black managers proves institutional racism).

I am saying that the statistical under representation of black managers does NOT prove institutional racism because there is another possible explanation: that black managers (on the average) simply aren't as good as white ones (just as basketball players under 6 feet tall simply aren't as good as ones who are taller). I don't know that to be the case because nobody has gathered data to try to establish a correlation between race and ability as a football manager. I'm just saying that anybody with an open mind must accept that it is POSSIBLE until proven otherwise. Which proves that any statistical under representation of black managers is NOT proof of institutional racism.

[bushcelt1]

Wow you clearly are missing the point ...

I'm not missing any point-my answer was to ince not the colour of his skin because he really is s hit as is keene. Would you want ince at rangers? I have no problem with chris ramsey or anyother manager(black or white) in the hot seat as long as he has a right good go. We sang about ince at ol trafford in 95 in the cup-if you remember it was about him not that was black.

[nasser95]

Not sure if you're talking to me but since the last post was mine, I'll assume so. My previous post had nothing to do with the state of football in the 70s, it was simply to show that nasser is talking rubbish and contradicting himself. It's hard to debate with somebody who is talking rubbish.

As for the 70s, I believe that one of the key reasons there were no black players is that they didn't play football much before then! It is also quite likely that in addition, they were discriminated against but once managers saw they were good players they started picking them! The situation has resolved itself without the need for any racist rule like the so called "Rooney rule"!

I didn't actually contradict myself. There is no correlation on the basis that there isn't enough data to give an actual suggestion that there could be one.

[brightonr]

No one has suggested a quota of jobs for black managers but merely opening up the interview process.

The link I was responding to says exactly that. Target of 20% BME coaches by 2020. Perhaps you didn't read it.

Using this as a single example, Ince didn't succeed. Fair enough. The issue is that he didn't get another opportunity. Look at the countless other managers who have failed in the premier league but have been given chances again.

Nasser, you should quit whilst you are behind. Paul Ince, after leaving Blackburn, left Notts County having only achieved a 13th place finish in League 1. He went to Notts County where he left after setting a club record of 9 defeats in a row. During his time at Blackpool, he won only 12 out of 42 games.

If you were a PL chairman, would that be a reason to take a chance on him? No, of course not. But you just keep on believing it was for a different reason.

Your inability to make your case is astonishing mate.

Once again and the final time I'll ask you. Please provide the evidence that "the doors were not previously open to the minorities in the first place".

We have already established that at QPR, they most certainly were.

[dsqpr]

So in the 1970s you would have equally been happy with the status quo regards players then?

Not sure if you're talking to me but since the last post was mine, I'll assume so. My previous post had nothing to do with the state of football in the 70s, it was simply to show that nasser is talking rubbish and contradicting himself. It's hard to debate with somebody who is talking rubbish.

As for the 70s, I believe that one of the key reasons there were no black players is that they didn't play football much before then! It is also quite likely that in addition, they were discriminated against but once managers saw they were good players they started picking them! The situation has resolved itself without the need for any racist rule like the so called "Rooney rule"!

[Awin]

So in the 1970s you would have equally been happy with the status quo regards players then?

[dsqpr]

ds, the issue with your argument is that short players are not represented because they aren't of the right build to play that sport. Despite that, what you see is that there are a few extremely talented individuals who are significantly shorter than most in the league and they make it because their inherent ability makes their height a limited factor. The difference between basketball and football is that the element of height actually has an effect on the quality of players. There is a correlation between performance and height in general. Discrimination isn't what its called because the quality of the player is affected by their height (In general). There is absolutely no correlation however between race and managerial skill in football. There isn't even enough data to prove that white managers are better than black managers or vice versa because there haven't been a significant amount of black managers within the sport (certainly in the UK) to get enough data to validate the information.

That is arguably the most ridiculous statement on this thread. It is 100% impossible to make a fair assessment on any correlation. There is no factual evidence linking them. To suggest closed mindedness in believing that is totally unfounded. And for the record, there is no study showing that white managers are any good under any circumstances.

Need I say more?

[Awin]

Yeah...give roy keene his own team cause he's irish. On second thoughts NO...cause he is s hit.

Wow you clearly are missing the point ...

[bushcelt1]

Using this as a single example, Ince didn't succeed. Fair enough. The issue is that he didn't get another opportunity. Look at the countless other managers who have failed in the premier league but have been given chances again.

Yeah...give roy keene his own team cause he's irish. On second thoughts NO...cause he is s hit.

[nasser95]

No one has suggested a quota of jobs for black managers but merely opening up the interview process

Historically there was limited opportunity for black players until clubs with less finances turned to black players as they were comparatively cheaper - over time numbers increased within the game,

As had been pointed out previously there are limited ways of assessing manager ability and historically many black ex players who wanted to manage found jobs hard to come by. Quoting soccernomics again :

The issue hit Britain only when the first generation of black players began to retire (it being a longstanding article of faith in football that only ex-players had what it took to become managers). The former England international Luther Blissett, who as a player had made that ill-fated transfer to Milan, applied for 22 manager jobs in the 1990s. He did not get a single interview. Stella Orakwue, who recounts his story in her 1998 book, Pitch Invaders , concludes, ‘I feel a British black managing a Premiership team could be a very long way off.’ Indeed, it was not until 2008, ten years after she wrote this, that Blackburn gave Paul Ince a chance. After Ince’s appointment, John Barnes, who himself had struggled to get work as a manager, still maintained, ‘I believe the situation for black managers is like it was for black players back in the 1970s.’ Ince lasted less than six months at Blackburn. He hasn’t had a chance in the Premier League since.

Using this as a single example, Ince didn't succeed. Fair enough. The issue is that he didn't get another opportunity. Look at the countless other managers who have failed in the premier league but have been given chances again.