Europe. In or out?

[Joe90]

i didn't ask you about what other people said.

what i wanted to know was specifics.

specifics about where the uk had been given to the eu without consent.

referenced specifics.

you didn't provide any.

oddly, i'm not falling off my chair in surprise.

try again.

maybe be a bit specific this time.

You asked me a question based on something I said. I explained the quote and I also gave you specifics. You clearly don't understand, that's your problem not mine.

[klonk]

You asked me a question based on something I said. I explained the quote and I also gave you specifics. You clearly don't understand, that's your problem not mine.

no you didn't.

you didn't give me a single specific point.

you're not able to give specifics.

just be honest - i'm giving you the chance to discuss stuff - you don't seem to be able to do this... admit it.

[Stanley]

which "big decisions" have the eu been given without our consent? name them and give some accurate references to the eu decisions so that people understand what decisions you are talking about. if you can't name them and give references for people to make their own minds up on, then why are you posting this type of stuff?

Klonk, you're asking the wrong person. It was gaza09 who said that, not Joe90. Joe90 was only quoting him.

[klonk]

Klonk, you're asking the wrong person. It was gaza09 who said that, not Joe90. Joe90 was only quoting him.

am i?

dunno... joe90 reckons he gave me specifics, but i don't see them.

just want to hear some specific examples of how being in the eu is pushing big decisions away from elected organisations.

[jmelanie]

which "big decisions" have the eu been given without our consent? name them and give some accurate references to the eu decisions so that people understand what decisions you are talking about. if you can't name them and give references for people to make their own minds up on, then why are you posting this type of stuff?

Last year the EU decided we had to pay in more money to them because our economy was doing well. This made no sense. We had to pay it even though we did get to put of payment for 6 months. This was a fairly big decision in my opinion.

[Joe90]

no you didn't.

you didn't give me a single specific point.

you're not able to give specifics.

just be honest - i'm giving you the chance to discuss stuff - you don't seem to be able to do this... admit it.

Klonk, if you don't understand what I've written or the wider discussion I'll explain it to you, but there has to be some willingness on your part to try and understand. You've missed quoted me and ignored my very specific argument/point. I think to understand the situation you should first understand how our political system works democracy vs sovereignty.

I'll give you a second chance to discuss my example about trade and free movement:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/227069/2901084_SingleMarket_acc.pdf#page=23

See paragraph 2.9 of the report where it says in no uncertain terms: The EU is given the powers to act in this area by means of a “shared competence”


between the EU and the Member States

So we're clear the big decisions being decided here by the EU is to do with trade and free movement of goods, service, capital and people.

I've given you one big point with four separate areas that have all been legislated for. Is that enough for you?

[gaza09]

You're unhappy about the EU making big decisions on our behalf without our consent, can I assume that you're also unhappy with the un-elected House of Lords being able to veto and make decisions about laws on your behalf?

We didn't vote to have this referendum at the last general election, it may have been in the Conservative manifesto but you're conflating two points. One doesn't necessarily follow the other. Did you vote for the Conservatives for this reason?

I don't think democracy is beyond reproach. Saying that doesn't infer that I prefer a despotic totalitarian alternative, because it isn't one or the other. Do you know there are different types democracy?

I'm not trying to convince anyone either way, I just wanted to make a few points for people to consider.

The House of Commons have no right to legislate law in this country. They are simply a reviewing chamber. It's the difference between the UK and the EU, the power to legislate law in the EU lies with the unelected commission and then our elected MEPs vote to ratify it, they have it the wrong way around.

I did vote for the conservatives and I expect them to carry out their manifesto pledges.
Did you vote for them?

[Joe90]

The House of Commons have no right to legislate law in this country. They are simply a reviewing chamber. It's the difference between the UK and the EU, the power to legislate law in the EU lies with the unelected commission and then our elected MEPs vote to ratify it, they have it the wrong way around.

I did vote for the conservatives and I expect them to carry out their manifesto pledges.
Did you vote for them?

I see your point.

If it worked the other way around do you think the EU would be better? Surely it makes sense for it to be that way around because of all of the different member states? Don't they use a process of approximation to account for this?

Is this the main issue you have with the EU?

I've still not decided if I'm voting in or out.

I didn't vote Conservative last time, but I have voted for them in the past. They should carry out their manifesto pledges but unfortunately some parties in the past have gone back on pledges.

[lymehoop]

such has been the spite from this referendum I can see the Tories having serious problems being re-elected. Just looking at Cameron and Osborne turns my stomach. Labour has long lost my vote. Will protest parties get a foothold in Westminster? Whatever, I see serious trouble in the near future

[jmelanie]

such has been the spite from this referendum I can see the Tories having serious problems being re-elected. Just looking at Cameron and Osborne turns my stomach. Labour has long lost my vote. Will protest parties get a foothold in Westminster? Whatever, I see serious trouble in the near future

I'm afraid you're right, whatever happens in the referendum, there are going to be problems in the future. Look at the U.S. they are so unhappy with their government, they seem to be going to elect somebody who nobody really wants.

[Hubble]

Some very interesting points raised by Joe above, food for thought.

I saw yesterday that Clarkson is backing Remain. I would have thought he was a big influence on some voters. The tragic event that occurred on Thursday, allied to Farage's controversial 'Breaking Point' poster have possibly tipped the balance. I also see now that there is a split in the leave campaign, with Gove and Johnson distancing themselves from Farage.

[Shania]

The Norwegian prime-minister said yesterday that you most likely would hate being outside EU. I think she was refering to the fact that you will have to follow certain regulations when it comes to immigration from Eastern Europe even if you vote for Brexit.

[jmelanie]

The Norwegian prime-minister said yesterday that you most likely would hate being outside EU. I think she was refering to the fact that you will have to follow certain regulations when it comes to immigration from Eastern Europe even if you vote for Brexit.

Aren't you about to have a third referendum on whether or not to join the EU? If the U.K. leaves then the referendum will most certainly be no. So it is not really in your government's interest for us to leave.

[cross it Dave]

The Norwegian prime-minister said yesterday that you most likely would hate being outside EU. I think she was refering to the fact that you will have to follow certain regulations when it comes to immigration from Eastern Europe even if you vote for Brexit.

No we won't, we will make our own rules.

[Hove Ranger]

Democracy is just rhetoric. It's had an interesting history