Europe. In or out?

[stainrodisalegend]

With all due respect to you too, i get the impression your getting riled up.
My point about the opinions on the effects on the economy was this. For every economist who says we'll suffer, another says we won't. Interestingly a lot of the remain campaigns predictions are short term. I don't think anybody disagrees that it might be a rocky road during during the period of adjustment. It's what happens after that that matters.
We could do tit-for-tat exchanges of links to articles regarding the predicted economic outcome and mine would also be from very well respected economists. We could also link to newspaper articles, again contradicting each other. But where would that get us ? I think the saying is "put 10 economists in a room together and you'll get 11 different perspectives" (they will all have different opinions and one will keep changing his mind) That's why I agreed with Jmelanie, it will probably come down to personalities. Who most people trust as an individual.
You ask whether I'm in a well paid secure job but I've been vehemently defending the rights of people in low paid jobs.
You'revthe one whose saying its market forces, they either lump it or learn something more skilled. That migrants often work harder for less money. Do you not realise how insulting that sounds ?
I've obviously re-read through our posts and one of the many things I've noticed is that my posts might paint a picture of me as someone whose anti immigrant. If they do that's my fault. I'm not against anybody wanting to improve their lives. I would do exactly the same. Funnily enough I tried to emigrate to Australia in my younger years but couldn't get a visa !
One of the main points I've tried to put across is that open borders are unfair. As another poster said, it's not even free movement of labour, it's free movement of people. Keep our borders open to people who have the necessary skills and attributes to live and work here, of which there are many, inside and outside the EU. It's basic common sense surely, or am I missing something. Using the American dream is not a fair comparison, in fact the similarities between what happened then and what's happening now are so far apart i could turn it around and use it to back up my own argument.

Anyway, I think the long and short of it is neither of us are going to be swayed by the others points in terms of voting. I don't agree with your opinion but I respect it and hopefully you feel the same.
For what it's worth I honestly can't see us voting to leave so we'll probably never know what might have been.
In terms of your reference to the article in la tribune, I agree, if we leave, some of our European "partners" will try to screw us over but the same will apply if we stay. The fact that we've got to this point will have got their backs up and let's face it, some of them didn't hold us in very high regard anyway.

Certainly respect your opinion in all regards except where you make out that economists are somehow divided 50/50. They are not. The overwhelming majority say it would be a disaster - largely for the reason that you concede at the end, that the rest of Europe would screw us over if we leave.

[stainrodisalegend]

Everybody keeps saying we can use our veto. This is possibly on some occasions. However this rarely happens. If Britain does use their veto then they usually change whatever agreement is being discussed so the veto is no longer relevant. I think Britain has only used the veto on a handful of times.

This is not scaremongering. If we vote to stay in the EU things will continue to change and as far as I know we (the population) will have little say in these changes. For example if the government of the day decides for whatever reason to further enlarge the EU, then we will have no say in this decision. The present ambition of the EU is a federal Europe (I don't believe this has changed). In order for this to happen a common currency for all members will be necessary. I do not recall us ever saying we would not join the Euro. I believe the reason for not joining was because Gordon Brown said that we did not fulfill the necessary requirements. When we did not join we were told our economy would suffer, banks would leave the U.K. (in fact more banks came to the capital), and it would in general a bad thing for the U.K. Sound familiar?

Enlargement of Europe would require unanimous agreement of all 27 members.

[vespa]

Several train and tube strikes for a start.

When were these " several train " strikes that only had 30% of members voting for a strike ,that held the whole country to ransom ?
This is just another bit of ill informed anti union propaganda , i can say that quite confidently ,because ive worked on the Railway for many years ,and i havn`t even known of a Drivers strike on my region since the late 90s.

[Stanley]

It's a great debate, but ultimately there is no right or wrong way over this referendum. Each one of us has our own truth unique to our circumstances and individualism; and that will always rise above any of the individual debates. On an issue as far-reaching as this, after we've listened to the arguments, I would ultimately vote with how my gut instinct and intuition guides me, over and above the intellect. You can be hit with rational arguments until your blue in the face, but if something just doesn't feel right about it then that's what I always trust in the end because it usually turns out to be the right decision, at least on a personal level, if not for the greater good.

[vespa]

It's a great debate, but ultimately there is no right or wrong way over this referendum. Each one of us has our own truth unique to our circumstances and individualism; and that will always rise above any of the individual debates. On an issue as far-reaching as this, after we've listened to the arguments, I would ultimately vote with how my gut instinct and intuition guides me, over and above the intellect. You can be hit with rational arguments until your blue in the face, but if something just doesn't feel right about it then that's what I always trust in the end because it usually turns out to be the right decision, at least on a personal level, if not for the greater good.

My problem is my gut instinct is pulling me both ways !

[Stanley]

My problem is my gut instinct is pulling me both ways !

Then it's not your gut instinct Vesps, but your intellect.

You're a soul man, right? So just let your soul guide you, and you'll find your north star :-)

[jmelanie]

Enlargement of Europe would require unanimous agreement of all 27 members.

As it did with previous enlargement to which everybody agreed, so I see no reason why everybody won't agree to future enlargement.

Even countries which need the consent of the population finally agree (like Ireland) because if the population votes against it the first time, they get to vote again until they finally agree. This has happened several times.

[jmelanie]

When were these " several train " strikes that only had 30% of members voting for a strike ,that held the whole country to ransom ?
This is just another bit of ill informed anti union propaganda , i can say that quite confidently ,because ive worked on the Railway for many years ,and i havn`t even known of a Drivers strike on my region since the late 90s.

There are many examples of public sector strikes. One which springs to mind is a London transport bus strike which took place in January 2015 where only 16% of the union members voted to strike.

You are probably right about the train strikes because since they were denationalized there have not been very many strikes.

[jmelanie]

Me, I haven't a clue still. There is clearly not going to be a world war if we vote out but I also don't think we are going to suddenly be calling sausages meat tubes because we vote in. My main concern is human rights if we vote out and my concern for staying is, what use has it been so far. I mean are we actually gaining anything long term from the EU that we couldn't do anyway without being in this trade agreement. Both campaigns a just twisted truths and some just plain lies. Both sides.arguments are really exaggerated and pathetic. I kinda expected better considering we have known this referendum was announced a while back. I am also not sure if Cameron is bluffing as really it would be in some of the Tories interest (especially people such as Stephen Trapp) to not be in the EU. He would love to be able to take away disabled people's benefits even more without Brussels laws looming over him.
I can't argue with the fact migration has got stupid. And these open borders taht allow other EU residents to live here whether they have needed valuable skills or not is a bit dim. Of course we should help refugees, but they are separate from.regular migration.
As a disabled guy with learning difficulties, I struggled my way thru multiple computer science courses and I can't help but feel my ability to get a job in the workplace has suffered greatly due to migration. Many more professionals can do what I do for longer and with more professionalism. (Sadly something I can't control either of.) So rather than companies being willing to take on disabled people due to the need for a workforce, these jobs are filled. I feel under this current situation my employment chances get worse and worse and that is certainly something I wish would change.

Thank you for your response. I agree with you entirely on the problems of being disabled. The U.K. is in fact a lot better than other countries. One solution to this would be to have a minister for the disabled who is disabled. It is only when you are disabled that you recognize all the problems. For example on a simple matter, our apartment block decided they needed a new front door. I contacted them and suggested that the same time it should open automatically so that it would be easier for less able people to enter the apartment block. They replied that it was not cost effective at this time and maybe they would consider it later. I checked into it an found out that it would cost another 200 pounds to fit an automatic door. Since there are 29 apartments in our block that would have been less than 10 pounds per apartment. They still said it was too expensive. As a result if you are in a wheelchair, you first have to swipe you card, then get over to the door to open it, then go over a step to get into the apartment block, then go over a mat which is sunken into the floor, before arriving at another door which you have to open in order to get to the lift. This is practically impossible if you are on your own. Anybody in a wheelchair could see this, but to an able-bodied person, they simply don't understand. Sorry if this is of subject but I feel that it is an important subject which needs to be addressed.

As I said the U.K. is making efforts. It is now possible to take most buses in London with a wheelchair. There is a system called Dial a Ride which picks you up from your home and takes you to local places as examples.

[jmelanie]

Believe it or not, I'm still not 100% decided - I'm still waiting for someone to persuade me to vote out. I think it's reassurances I'd need and unfortunately the major players in the Brexit campaign concern me too much to vote that way. I think it's a shame a cogent case hasn't been put forward by the left wing. I've put my remain arguments up to see how people respond. No one has convinced me those arguments are wrong yet, but people have certainly made me think hard about it.

David Owen is part of the Brexit campaign and he seems more reasonable than the major players. Also he originally was in favour of the EU but has since changed his mind. He has made a number of speeches but they have not been greatly publicized by the press because they are not sensational enough. For example he wrote an article in the Guardian regarding the NHS and TTIP http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ays-david-owen

[Olly]

Remain or Leave are both future unknowns. If we stay, we'll end up being a tiny part of something we may not like, no say and no borders, the Europe Superstate. We will no longer exist as British or French etc, (except in history books) we'll all be Europeans from Europe. Cameron proved recently how much say we have on reform. If we leave we'll know exactly where we're going in the future, once we've sorted out the temporary teething problems.

All the Remain predictions are laughable, no matter how many 'experts' and 'authorities' they find.

A prediction is not evidence, never will be, and it is not fact either, it will not stand up in a court of law.

Listen to how the 'Remains' weave the word 'fact' and 'evidence' into all these opinions, weasel words and lies. Masters of Spin, Liars of the Universe.

[vespa]

There are many examples of public sector strikes. One which springs to mind is a London transport bus strike which took place in January 2015 where only 16% of the union members voted to strike.

You are probably right about the train strikes because since they were denationalized there have not been very many strikes.

I think the point ,that we`re probably not going to agree on is ,in my view industrial action is justified if the majority of union members who bother to vote ,vote to strike.
Every member gets the right to vote ,so people who dont bother ,should not be taken as a vote against ( or for ) industrial action . The governments new rules are blatantly unfair , votes should only be counted for members who bother to vote ,just like in our own parliamentary system .

[vespa]

Then it's not your gut instinct Vesps, but your intellect.

You're a soul man, right? So just let your soul guide you, and you'll find your north star :-)

Cheers for that Stan

[qprted]

all the top economists predict bankruptsy if we stay in so we must leave based on the e e c imigrant numbers we received lasyt year to stay would be financially impossible we cant sustain this kind of level so we sare forced out

[Hubble]

David Owen is part of the Brexit campaign and he seems more reasonable than the major players. Also he originally was in favour of the EU but has since changed his mind. He has made a number of speeches but they have not been greatly publicized by the press because they are not sensational enough. For example he wrote an article in the Guardian regarding the NHS and TTIP http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ays-david-owen

Thanks for posting that jm - certainly food for thought.