Europe. In or out?

[cross it Dave]

I agree with you on the apparent corruption of many of our leaders, actually!

No what I meant was, the radio article perhaps didn't present all of the info - just a subset. Usual Media tactic to steer folks in the direction they want etc

I wasn't refering to our glourious elite, I was refering to the leaders of the countries we blindly dole billions of our tax pounds out to.

Though I would not be surprised if that utter ####### Blair wasn't a frequent visitor to Zurich.

[brightonr]

I would say you're right Brightonr. But those sums, in all honesty, are probably entirely trivial in comparison to the economic impact of leaving. This is what virtually all fiscal expertise is telling us.

They probably are. But they are just in relation to one particular issue that needn't be anything to do with us. In addition to net weekly contributions of many millions.

Europe has let us down very badly over the years. Would be perfectly happy to stay in if the rest of them would accept that changes are necessary and inevitable. The ability to control our own borders is just one aspect. One that EVERY country should be free to control, regardless of anything else. Why should France, Germany or anybody else let me in without satisfying themselves that I could contribute properly?

And why on earth are we paying child benefit to children living in other states? Surely that should be the responsibility of the country they live in, shouldn't it? Unless I'm missing something, in which case I would be interested in hearing a valid reason.

[cross it Dave]

I would say you're right Brightonr. But those sums, in all honesty, are probably entirely trivial in comparison to the economic impact of leaving. This is what virtually all fiscal expertise is telling us.

Economic experts have a very regular habit of being wrong, just ask the IMF, Every British chancellor for generations, Mark Carney, the ERM etc etc etc.

Wrong wrong wrong, the just get it wrong.

And £675,000,000 would have paid for 33,000 nurses for a year, hopefully British ones.

[Snaxo]

Economic experts do not always get it right, of course. However, when there is such overwhelming consensus (which there isn't always!), it does extremely risky to ignore them in this case. So what is your basis for the alternative? Where do you get your economic info from that you trust to be correct and lead you to believe leaving is the better option?

re: Nurses. Almost certainly not British. My wife is a Nurse (a sister). The hospitals cannot recruit enough qualified UK nurses (due to successive UK Gov's making it such an unattractive proposition as a job - which it is now, for the most part), that many hospital Matrons / HR departments, now routinely visit other EU (or other) countries to literally hold recruitment fairs. Meanwhile the Gov continues to ignore tax loopholes affecting the rich, large corporations etc. Sigh.

[gaza09]

And why, do you think that was not mentioned? ;-)

You didn't smell a rat? You thought the Government was so fundamentally stupid (I mean, I'm not a fan of this Gov at all - but they 'aint stupid) they'd spend all that money on funding Turkey's entry into the EU- when actually, if the EU voted on Turkey joining the EU - the UK Gov (any flavour) would almost certainly use their veto vote to stop it?

It is government policy to support turkeys accession to the EU.
And this funding has nothing to do with the refugees, it's part of a £2million fund to help 5 new countries to meet the requirements to enter the EU

[Snaxo]

They probably are. But they are just in relation to one particular issue that needn't be anything to do with us. In addition to net weekly contributions of many millions.

Europe has let us down very badly over the years. Would be perfectly happy to stay in if the rest of them would accept that changes are necessary and inevitable. The ability to control our own borders is just one aspect. One that EVERY country should be free to control, regardless of anything else. Why should France, Germany or anybody else let me in without satisfying themselves that I could contribute properly?

And why on earth are we paying child benefit to children living in other states? Surely that should be the responsibility of the country they live in, shouldn't it? Unless I'm missing something, in which case I would be interested in hearing a valid reason.

The EU is far from perfect, for sure. In fact you're never going to get perfect in such an org. So let's stay outside the EU.

Then we still have to pay the EU millions to trade (with EU member states) and have no influence on their reform whatsoever, and have likely poorer trade terms and far harder asset mobility across borders.
Then we have to re-negotiate trade deals with everyone else (imagine what a nightmare that will be as such deals take years to tie down - Switzerland still hasn't finished and it's been negotiating for yonks) - who will most likely want to wait to see what deal we get with the EU anyway.
The statistics about us paying more out than we get back have been well and truly debunked.

[Hove Ranger]

Takes his kids. Sits in the Lower Loft. Good fella. Tbh Michael's problem is that he isn't self serving enough. If he were he'd have put his head up Dave's a ss and been for remain. The Tory leadership could be his, but he doesn't want it.

Gideon already has that position. You could interpret his and Boris's clamour to lead the brexit campaign as exactly that.

[Kevin Mcleod]

Today's odds.

Remain 2/9
Leave 3/1

Punter in the south put 8 grand on a cheeky 'remain' punt with corals earlier.

[jmelanie]

The EU is far from perfect, for sure. In fact you're never going to get perfect in such an org. So let's stay outside the EU.

Then we still have to pay the EU millions to trade (with EU member states) and have no influence on their reform whatsoever, and have likely poorer trade terms and far harder asset mobility across borders.
Then we have to re-negotiate trade deals with everyone else (imagine what a nightmare that will be as such deals take years to tie down - Switzerland still hasn't finished and it's been negotiating for yonks) - who will most likely want to wait to see what deal we get with the EU anyway.
The statistics about us paying more out than we get back have been well and truly debunked.

What reforms? I do not see any mention anywhere where Germany and France want reforms. More integration maybe and perhaps less talk of a Federal Europe. To me reforms means going back to the common market we had in 1975 with a few countries from Western Europe. Don't think that's going to happen. In order for the EU to work, member countries need to have similar economies which is not the case in the EU and I cannot see how this is going to happen in the future especially if more countries join. The USA works because the individual states on the whole have similar aims and economies. Having said that it has taken over 200 years to get where they are today and it still leaves a lot to be desired.

[Rangers77]

Gideon already has that position. You could interpret his and Boris's clamour to lead the brexit campaign as exactly that.

Certainly so with regard to the overrated believes in nothing Boris. Alas, Michael seems to have no interest in surplanting Dave. And sadly he'll be the first shoring him up Friday. Gideon, thankfully, is toast.

[dogsrrs]

Certainly so with regard to the overrated believes in nothing Boris. Alas, Michael seems to have no interest in surplanting Dave. And sadly he'll be the first shoring him up Friday. Gideon, thankfully, is toast.

Yeah I think Gideon is a busted flush ! His input into this debate has been an embarrassment

[cross it Dave]

What reforms? I do not see any mention anywhere where Germany and France want reforms. More integration maybe and perhaps less talk of a Federal Europe. To me reforms means going back to the common market we had in 1975 with a few countries from Western Europe. Don't think that's going to happen. In order for the EU to work, member countries need to have similar economies which is not the case in the EU and I cannot see how this is going to happen in the future especially if more countries join. The USA works because the individual states on the whole have similar aims and economies. Having said that it has taken over 200 years to get where they are today and it still leaves a lot to be desired.

I think it might be quite wise not to trust a word the Germans government says, their whole history since 1871 has been to donimate Europe.

I would not trust Merkel as far as I could throw her 14 stone of flab.

Trust Germany at your peril, ask the Greeks.

[Kevin Mcleod]

Vigil for Jo Cox being held on Thursday, David Beckham rumoured to be the chief mourner.

[Hove Ranger]

I think it might be quite wise not to trust a word the Germans government says, their whole history since 1871 has been to donimate Europe.

I would not trust Merkel as far as I could throw her 14 stone of flab.

Trust Germany at your peril, ask the Greeks.

Merkel doesn't pull the strings as much as they make out, it's the troika you need to watch out for. IMF and ECB are the silent overseers.

[Snaxo]

What reforms? I do not see any mention anywhere where Germany and France want reforms. More integration maybe and perhaps less talk of a Federal Europe. To me reforms means going back to the common market we had in 1975 with a few countries from Western Europe. Don't think that's going to happen. In order for the EU to work, member countries need to have similar economies which is not the case in the EU and I cannot see how this is going to happen in the future especially if more countries join. The USA works because the individual states on the whole have similar aims and economies. Having said that it has taken over 200 years to get where they are today and it still leaves a lot to be desired.

Well radical reform is unlikely yes, but as one of the largest and most influential states, the UK has a good deal more chance to effect *any* desired reform than we do if we are not in it...right? And if we are out of it - we just have to deal with it as it is and we can't veto any future undesirable changes that might negatively effect us. etc.
Ask the Norwegian government what they think of their deal with the EU? They'll tell you it's pretty undesirable. However, they are in a different boat to we will be, outside, they have $800+ billion of oil savings to fall back on.