Europe. In or out?

[Hubble]

Remain or Leave are both future unknowns. If we stay, we'll end up being a tiny part of something we may not like, no say and no borders, the Europe Superstate. We will no longer exist as British or French etc, (except in history books) we'll all be Europeans from Europe. Cameron proved recently how much say we have on reform. If we leave we'll know exactly where we're going in the future, once we've sorted out the temporary teething problems.

All the remain predictions are laughable, no matter how many 'experts' and 'authorities' they find. A prediction is not evidence, never will be, and it is not fact either, it will not stand up in a court of law. Listen to how the 'Remains' weave the word 'fact' and 'evidence' into all these opinions, weasel words and lies. Masters of Spin, Liars of the Universe.

You can say exactly the same about the Brexit cause Greeny - same spin, same dire predictions and scaremongering. Neither side has made a decent case IMO. That's the problem. The whole thing has been hijacked by warring factions in the Tory party. The rest have almost been drowned out. I have heard some sensible debates, but they were not between Tories.

I saw an excellent debate between Caroline Lucas (Remain) and Tom Hickey (Socialist Worker Party - Leave) - that Hovis sent me. Probably the best debate on the whole subject. Tom Hickey was persuasive, but Lucas was more persuasive (for me). Anyway, very interesting to listen to a debate from the left for a change.

[Stanley]

Remain or Leave are both future unknowns. If we stay, we'll end up being a tiny part of something we may not like, no say and no borders, the Europe Superstate. We will no longer exist as British or French etc, (except in history books) we'll all be Europeans from Europe. Cameron proved recently how much say we have on reform. If we leave we'll know exactly where we're going in the future, once we've sorted out the temporary teething problems.

All the Remain predictions are laughable, no matter how many 'experts' and 'authorities' they find. A prediction is not evidence, never will be, and it is not fact either, it will not stand up in a court of law. Listen to how the 'Remains' weave the word 'fact' and 'evidence' into all these opinions, weasel words and lies. Masters of Spin, Liars of the Universe.

I agree Green. The Pilgrim Fathers left and they did just fine. Not really much difference in my heart. Fortune favours the brave in the long run.

[Hubble]

Well, if we do vote to leave, it will be... interesting. Perhaps in the Chinese curse sense - may you live in interesting times. Although apparently 19th century politician Joseph Chamberlain made that up and the nearest equivalent in Chinese is "Better to be a dog in a peaceful time, than to be a human in a chaotic period."

Anyway - if we do leave, I predict that it could lead to the break up of the EU. It would send shock waves across Europe and the world - a rejection of a plan that has been moving along relatively smoothly for many years. It would certainly shake things up. Whether that's good or bad is impossible to say. Maybe it's both.

The first two years could be quite chaotic as there are mountains of legal issues. The cost of sorting that out alone could run into mutli-millions. In fact no one from the Brexit side seems to have factored this cost in. Just how much will it cost the huge legal teams required to do this? And then there's the renegotiation of trade and other treaties, which could also take years and will also cost more vast sums. And while this process is taking place, there will be much uncertainty. The British economy could tank in this situation. Markets don't like uncertainty.

It's certainly far riskier to leave than to stay, I don't think anyone could argue against that.

I like the gung-ho spirit, Rule Britannia, we'll show Johnny Foreigner, hoist the mainsail and all that, but is it practical? I don't think it is.

If we do leave, it could be a very painful, long and drawn out divorce. With no alimony for Britannia.

[Itsonlyagame]

Well, if we do vote to leave, it will be... interesting. Perhaps in the Chinese curse sense - may you live in interesting times. Although apparently 19th century politician Joseph Chamberlain made that up and the nearest equivalent in Chinese is "Better to be a dog in a peaceful time, than to be a human in a chaotic period."

Anyway - if we do leave, I predict that it could lead to the break up of the EU. It would send shock waves across Europe and the world - a rejection of a plan that has been moving along relatively smoothly for many years. It would certainly shake things up. Whether that's good or bad is impossible to say. Maybe it's both.

The first two years could be quite chaotic as there are mountains of legal issues. The cost of sorting that out alone could run into mutli-millions. In fact no one from the Brexit side seems to have factored this cost in. Just how much will it cost the huge legal teams required to do this? And then there's the renegotiation of trade and other treaties, which could also take years and will also cost more vast sums. And while this process is taking place, there will be much uncertainty. The British economy could tank in this situation. Markets don't like uncertainty.

It's certainly far riskier to leave than to stay, I don't think anyone could argue against that.

I like the gung-ho spirit, Rule Britannia, we'll show Johnny Foreigner, hoist the mainsail and all that, but is it practical? I don't think it is.

If we do leave, it could be a very painful, long and drawn out divorce. With no alimony for Britannia.

Is that you nailing your colours to the mast now Hubs, you seemed very much undecided until a few days ago ?
Fair play if you've made your mind up, you've made the effort to research the subject unlike a fair few who's decision was set in stone from day one. ( not referring to anyone in here btw )

[Hubble]

That's me almost decided Itso - I'm still not 100% though mate! Been burning the brain cells researching this, weighing it all up. As Stan says, maybe in the end you have to go with your gut.

[Itsonlyagame]

That's me almost decided Itso - I'm still not 100% though mate! Been burning the brain cells researching this, weighing it all up. As Stan says, maybe in the end you have to go with your gut.

I'd say gut feeling will play a large part for me too. Been round the houses so to speak in terms of weighing it all up and still not much the wiser. A huge decision and it could be years or even decades before we really know whether the right one was made.

[brightonr]

Well, if we do vote to leave, it will be... interesting. Perhaps in the Chinese curse sense - may you live in interesting times. Although apparently 19th century politician Joseph Chamberlain made that up and the nearest equivalent in Chinese is "Better to be a dog in a peaceful time, than to be a human in a chaotic period."

Anyway - if we do leave, I predict that it could lead to the break up of the EU. It would send shock waves across Europe and the world - a rejection of a plan that has been moving along relatively smoothly for many years. It would certainly shake things up. Whether that's good or bad is impossible to say. Maybe it's both.

The first two years could be quite chaotic as there are mountains of legal issues. The cost of sorting that out alone could run into mutli-millions. In fact no one from the Brexit side seems to have factored this cost in. Just how much will it cost the huge legal teams required to do this? And then there's the renegotiation of trade and other treaties, which could also take years and will also cost more vast sums. And while this process is taking place, there will be much uncertainty. The British economy could tank in this situation. Markets don't like uncertainty.

It's certainly far riskier to leave than to stay, I don't think anyone could argue against that.

I like the gung-ho spirit, Rule Britannia, we'll show Johnny Foreigner, hoist the mainsail and all that, but is it practical? I don't think it is.

If we do leave, it could be a very painful, long and drawn out divorce. With no alimony for Britannia.

Would be a blessing in disguise for all the other EU members in my opinion. Totally flawed concept from the beginning which was left unchecked and allowed to spiral out of control.

It would also pave the way to start again with just the basic free trade area, as we were originally led to believe would be the case. And guess what, it's all already in place so no need for anyone to worry about negotiating trade deals as some would have us believe is inevitable.

Wouldn't it be great to be able to trade freely with our european neighbours and continue with all the good things that the EU has been able to offer in terms of security, whilst each country can each make their own individual laws and political decisions that suit them. No reason at all to make travelling between nations any more difficult than it currently is, just no need to automatically allow permanent residence. We can allow those in who we feel can and will contribute to our society.

Those running the campaigns on both sides should be thoroughly ashamed of the way they have conducted themselves with their constant lies and scaremongering. As for the leaders of the two main parties, Cameron and Corbyn haven't come out of it well at all in my eyes. Wouldn't be at all surprised if both of them have been replaced by the end of the year.

[jmelanie]

You do realize we have De Gaulle to blame for this. If he hadn't said "non" we probably wouldn't have wanted to join in the first place.

[gaza09]

Sky news at 8 a fellow Ranger Michael Gove will be putting forward the case for leave

[lymehoop]

he done ok

[Jimmy Floyd Rabbit]

he done ok

Didn't watch, but many on Twitter saying he did well but the host was a jerk.

[lymehoop]

Didn't watch, but many on Twitter saying he did well but the host was a jerk.

in his defence he gave Cameron a hard time too. Thing with todays interviewers, they ask a question and then proceed to talk over the person trying to answer

[TBLOCKRANGER]

I've been floating and not sure but now decided...I'm voting OUT
To me the Remain camps argument is like the partner in a troubled relationship who threatens and berates a partner who wishes to leave by saying "you're nothing without me" "better the devil you know" "everyone's gonna hate you if you leave" blah blah blah...
sometimes when you know things aren't working out you've got to look in the mirror and think "I'm better than this" "I can do it" ....
Great Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world a great power and we are being treated as some pathetic island that will collapse because eh we want to move out.
All these international banks who caused austerity are now saying they will move out if we vote out...so what ...
EU is like a relationship that's run its course and isn't working, it's had its best moments and after us being in it for 40 yrs or so isn't going to get better, it's reached its high point and even that wasn't great, it's now only going to get worse. As a nation we now talk about leaving and all we get in return is threats and told we will fail if we go it alone, that's not a relationship that's the nasty partner doing all it can to make you stay but we are bigger than that.
Let's Vote out and make our great country a better place for everyone not just the elites.

[Stanley]

The break up of the EU would be a blessing in disguise for all the other members in my opinion. Totally flawed concept from the beginning which was left unchecked and allowed to spiral out of control.

It would also pave the way to start again with just the basic free trade area, as we were originally led to believe would be the case. And guess what, it's all already in place so no need for anyone to worry about negotiating trade deals as some would have us believe is inevitable.

Wouldn't it be great to be able to trade freely with our european neighbours and continue with all the good things that the EU has been able to offer in terms of security, whilst each country can each make their own individual laws and political decisions that suit them. No reason at all to make travelling between nations any more difficult than it currently is, just no need to automatically allow permanent residence. We can allow those in who we feel can and will contribute to our society.

Those running the campaigns on both sides should be thoroughly ashamed of the way they have conducted themselves with their constant lies and scaremongering. As for the leaders of the two main parties, Cameron and Corbyn haven't come out of it well at all in my eyes. Wouldn't be at all surprised if both of them have been replaced by the end of the year.

I've been floating and not sure but now decided...I'm voting OUT
To me the Remain camps argument is like the partner in a troubled relationship who threatens and berates a partner who wishes to leave by saying "you're nothing without me" "better the devil you know" "everyone's gonna hate you if you leave" blah blah blah...
sometimes when you know things aren't working out you've got to look in the mirror and think "I'm better than this" "I can do it" ....
Great Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world a great power and we are being treated as some pathetic island that will collapse because eh we want to move out.
All these international banks who caused austerity are now saying they will move out if we vote out...so what ...
EU is like a relationship that's run its course and isn't working, it's had its best moments and after us being in it for 40 yrs or so isn't going to get better, it's reached its high point and even that wasn't great, it's now only going to get worse. As a nation we now talk about leaving and all we get in return is threats and told we will fail if we go it alone, that's not a relationship that's the nasty partner doing all it can to make you stay but we are bigger than that.
Let's Vote out and make our great country a better place for everyone not just the elites.

Two very well expressed posts which I could not agree more with.

[Awin]

Sadly unlike the scottish referendum this debate has alienated a large number of voters.

I will nail my mast - I'm in

In a world with increasing alienation of nations I feel that unity is the way forward.

I also feel that in the case of an out vote it will signal the end of the British Isles as we know it.

A great shame!