The Rooney Rule

[72bus]

Good debate folks, I personally don't see any candidates for current managerial roles, this I suspect is because of lack the of black role models in the past, which might touch on historical racism, but moving on.

Our very own Nedum, an educated, articulate young man, Micah Richards, a property magnate, Henry, Hasslebank, to name a few maybe future managers?

The above and probably several more I haven't mention have conducted themselves in a manner that suggest they could translate there football knowledge into the managerial arena?

Things take time to evolve, slowly, but things do change, I still remember Viv Anderson getting his first cap.

you forgot to mention clinton morrison

[californiahoop]

Attempt of humour isn't always required.

[Maidohoops]

There is a distinct prejudice against indigenous players. Let's start with anti British before anti anything else. How does the Rooney rule reflect home nation players? It doesn't.

If there is a Rooney rule for managers there should be a Van Nistlerooy rule for home grown talent.

This right here is what institutional racism is. Why can a black manager not also be British? In fact most current ones are, so it could very easily be argued that the Rooney rule would increase the opportunity for British managers.

[brightonr]

This right here is what institutional racism is. Why can a black manager not also be British? In fact most current ones are, so it could very easily be argued that the Rooney rule would increase the opportunity for British managers.

I think maybe his point was that there are enough real problems to worry about in football, rather than to manufacture one for the sake of it.

Our club is two thirds owned by dark skinned Malaysians. One third by dark skinned Indians.

We have a white American CEO.

Our DOF is black british, as is the first team manager. Both Paul Furlong and Paul Hall, the fellas in charge of our younger sides are too.

Certainly as far as QPR are concerned, there cannot be even the slightest hint of a perception of racism. I'd say that is good, but would prefer to regard it as just the way it is. Les and Chris have not been prominent before, as they have been performing other roles and performing them well. In doing so, they have made themselves an attractive proposition for their current roles by gaining years of experience. This will surely happen elsewhere, just as it has done in all other walks of life. Really no need to look for problems where none exist. I'm not for a moment saying that there may not have been instances in the past, because there will have been. But there will have been in most walks of life. Fortunately, things have evolved sufficiently to stamp this sort of prejudice out.

[Kirill]

Attempt of humour isn't always required.

Sometimes it does turn into attempt on humour

[Maidohoops]

Certainly as far as QPR are concerned, there cannot be even the slightest hint of a perception of racism.

100% agree and something I am very proud of.

If you want to understand more about the issue then this certainly lays all the information out clearly.

http://http://www.farenet.org/wp-con...-one-voice.pdf

[Stanley]

100% agree and something I am very proud of.

If you want to understand more about the issue then this certainly lays all the information out clearly.

http://http://www.farenet.org/wp-con...-one-voice.pdf

Thanks Maido. I've fixed the link for you: http://www.farenet.org/wp-content/up...-one-voice.pdf

[nasser95]

I think maybe his point was that there are enough real problems to worry about in football, rather than to manufacture one for the sake of it.

Our club is two thirds owned by dark skinned Malaysians. One third by dark skinned Indians.

We have a white American CEO.

Our DOF is black british, as is the first team manager. Both Paul Furlong and Paul Hall, the fellas in charge of our younger sides are too.

Certainly as far as QPR are concerned, there cannot be even the slightest hint of a perception of racism. I'd say that is good, but would prefer to regard it as just the way it is. Les and Chris have not been prominent before, as they have been performing other roles and performing them well. In doing so, they have made themselves an attractive proposition for their current roles by gaining years of experience. This will surely happen elsewhere, just as it has done in all other walks of life. Really no need to look for problems where none exist. I'm not for a moment saying that there may not have been instances in the past, because there will have been. But there will have been in most walks of life. Fortunately, things have evolved sufficiently to stamp this sort of prejudice out.

QPR have done an absolutely incredible job of it but it doesn't hide the flaws of the other clubs. Thinking that there isn't prejudice in the game any more is like covering your eyes to the blatant issues within the sport. This is an issue that is extremely easy to deal with. The fact is, that implementing the rooney rule will have almost no negative effects to the sports. Clubs may interview a token candidate of course, but many clubs will open their application process to many talented people who didn't have the door open to them in the first place.

Just one extra point, there is a very big point that managers with little playing experience or managers who don't use their playing experience as benchmarks for their management experience tend to be the better managers. Arsene Wenger, Sir Alex, Mourinho are some examples of managers who had limited exposure as players to top teams but used qualifications and non-playing knowledge to become some of the greatest managers of all time. The reason for that is because they were brought into jobs for their qualifications over their playing experience. Very few amazing ex pros make amazing managers. So the idea that Ned, Richards etc show the skills required to become managers is nonsense. The fact is that until people do their work and reading and learn the ropes, any playing experience is only going to affect their knowledge of how to deal with players who are upset for example.

[brightonr]

QPR have done an absolutely incredible job of it but it doesn't hide the flaws of the other clubs. Thinking that there isn't prejudice in the game any more is like covering your eyes to the blatant issues within the sport. This is an issue that is extremely easy to deal with. The fact is, that implementing the rooney rule will have almost no negative effects to the sports. Clubs may interview a token candidate of course, but many clubs will open their application process to many talented people who didn't have the door open to them in the first place.

Just one extra point, there is a very big point that managers with little playing experience or managers who don't use their playing experience as benchmarks for their management experience tend to be the better managers. Arsene Wenger, Sir Alex, Mourinho are some examples of managers who had limited exposure as players to top teams but used qualifications and non-playing knowledge to become some of the greatest managers of all time. The reason for that is because they were brought into jobs for their qualifications over their playing experience. Very few amazing ex pros make amazing managers. So the idea that Ned, Richards etc show the skills required to become managers is nonsense. The fact is that until people do their work and reading and learn the ropes, any playing experience is only going to affect their knowledge of how to deal with players who are upset for example.

Why Nasser? And I'd appreciate it if you could show me the evidence, like you have failed to do so far.

100% agree and something I am very proud of.

If you want to understand more about the issue then this certainly lays all the information out clearly.

http://http://www.farenet.org/wp-con...-one-voice.pdf

Started to read that, but to be honest, found it worrying. Just where does this obsession for quotas and targets come from?
Surely you don't have to be Einstein to work out that saying we should have "20% BME" as a target is exactly the same as saying that "regardless of ability, 20% of jobs should not be made available to white british people".

I'm perfectly happy with 3.5%. I'd be happy with 20%. And I'd be just as happy if it were 50%. All I'm concerned about is that whoever gets whatever job, has got it for a football reason, not because they are perceived to be a minority group.

It's exactly this type of thing that creates problems rather than solves them. I'm sorry, but someone's colour is irrelevant to me and I would guess to almost everyone on this forum, fortunately. This being the case, I would love to see the evidence of where clubs have discriminated against a potential manager or coach because of their colour. I would have thought if there were any, the papers would have picked it up for us all to see.

[QPRDave]

Why Nasser? And I'd appreciate it if you could show me the evidence, like you have failed to do so far.



Started to read that, but to be honest, found it worrying. Just where does this obsession for quotas and targets come from?
Surely you don't have to be Einstein to work out that saying we should have "20% BME" as a target is exactly the same as saying that "regardless of ability, 20% of jobs should not be made available to white british people".

I'm perfectly happy with 3.5%. I'd be happy with 20%. And I'd be just as happy if it were 50%. All I'm concerned about is that whoever gets whatever job, has got it for a football reason, not because they are perceived to be a minority group.

It's exactly this type of thing that creates problems rather than solves them. I'm sorry, but someone's colour is irrelevant to me and I would guess to almost everyone on this forum, fortunately. This being the case, I would love to see the evidence of where clubs have discriminated against a potential manager or coach because of their colour. I would have thought if there were any, the papers would have picked it up for us all to see.

Yeah good post Brighton. I'm no lover of the pc squadron, but I'm no racist. These things must be done on ability, as should all jobs.
I think your point that if we introduce this ruling and say after 20 jobs come up and say no black applicant gets employed, can you imagine those black lawyers crowd?

[Awin]

Why Nasser? And I'd appreciate it if you could show me the evidence, like you have failed to do so far.



Started to read that, but to be honest, found it worrying. Just where does this obsession for quotas and targets come from?
Surely you don't have to be Einstein to work out that saying we should have "20% BME" as a target is exactly the same as saying that "regardless of ability, 20% of jobs should not be made available to white british people".

I'm perfectly happy with 3.5%. I'd be happy with 20%. And I'd be just as happy if it were 50%. All I'm concerned about is that whoever gets whatever job, has got it for a football reason, not because they are perceived to be a minority group.

It's exactly this type of thing that creates problems rather than solves them. I'm sorry, but someone's colour is irrelevant to me and I would guess to almost everyone on this forum, fortunately. This being the case, I would love to see the evidence of where clubs have discriminated against a potential manager or coach because of their colour. I would have thought if there were any, the papers would have picked it up for us all to see.

No one has suggested a quota of jobs for black managers but merely opening up the interview process

Historically there was limited opportunity for black players until clubs with less finances turned to black players as they were comparatively cheaper - over time numbers increased within the game,

As had been pointed out previously there are limited ways of assessing manager ability and historically many black ex players who wanted to manage found jobs hard to come by. Quoting soccernomics again :

The issue hit Britain only when the first generation of black players began to retire (it being a longstanding article of faith in football that only ex-players had what it took to become managers). The former England international Luther Blissett, who as a player had made that ill-fated transfer to Milan, applied for 22 manager jobs in the 1990s. He did not get a single interview. Stella Orakwue, who recounts his story in her 1998 book, Pitch Invaders , concludes, ‘I feel a British black managing a Premiership team could be a very long way off.’ Indeed, it was not until 2008, ten years after she wrote this, that Blackburn gave Paul Ince a chance. After Ince’s appointment, John Barnes, who himself had struggled to get work as a manager, still maintained, ‘I believe the situation for black managers is like it was for black players back in the 1970s.’ Ince lasted less than six months at Blackburn. He hasn’t had a chance in the Premier League since.

[nasser95]

No one has suggested a quota of jobs for black managers but merely opening up the interview process

Historically there was limited opportunity for black players until clubs with less finances turned to black players as they were comparatively cheaper - over time numbers increased within the game,

As had been pointed out previously there are limited ways of assessing manager ability and historically many black ex players who wanted to manage found jobs hard to come by. Quoting soccernomics again :

The issue hit Britain only when the first generation of black players began to retire (it being a longstanding article of faith in football that only ex-players had what it took to become managers). The former England international Luther Blissett, who as a player had made that ill-fated transfer to Milan, applied for 22 manager jobs in the 1990s. He did not get a single interview. Stella Orakwue, who recounts his story in her 1998 book, Pitch Invaders , concludes, ‘I feel a British black managing a Premiership team could be a very long way off.’ Indeed, it was not until 2008, ten years after she wrote this, that Blackburn gave Paul Ince a chance. After Ince’s appointment, John Barnes, who himself had struggled to get work as a manager, still maintained, ‘I believe the situation for black managers is like it was for black players back in the 1970s.’ Ince lasted less than six months at Blackburn. He hasn’t had a chance in the Premier League since.

Using this as a single example, Ince didn't succeed. Fair enough. The issue is that he didn't get another opportunity. Look at the countless other managers who have failed in the premier league but have been given chances again.

[bushcelt1]

Using this as a single example, Ince didn't succeed. Fair enough. The issue is that he didn't get another opportunity. Look at the countless other managers who have failed in the premier league but have been given chances again.

Yeah...give roy keene his own team cause he's irish. On second thoughts NO...cause he is s hit.

[Awin]

Yeah...give roy keene his own team cause he's irish. On second thoughts NO...cause he is s hit.

Wow you clearly are missing the point ...

[dsqpr]

ds, the issue with your argument is that short players are not represented because they aren't of the right build to play that sport. Despite that, what you see is that there are a few extremely talented individuals who are significantly shorter than most in the league and they make it because their inherent ability makes their height a limited factor. The difference between basketball and football is that the element of height actually has an effect on the quality of players. There is a correlation between performance and height in general. Discrimination isn't what its called because the quality of the player is affected by their height (In general). There is absolutely no correlation however between race and managerial skill in football. There isn't even enough data to prove that white managers are better than black managers or vice versa because there haven't been a significant amount of black managers within the sport (certainly in the UK) to get enough data to validate the information.

That is arguably the most ridiculous statement on this thread. It is 100% impossible to make a fair assessment on any correlation. There is no factual evidence linking them. To suggest closed mindedness in believing that is totally unfounded. And for the record, there is no study showing that white managers are any good under any circumstances.

Need I say more?