Harsh on Harry?

[Kevin Mcleod]

I wouldn't say Harry got us promoted. I would say Steve Mclaren and a lot of fortune in the final got us promoted.

to Steve and to luck. We are extremely grateful.

[Marshy]

I don't think I like the personal attacks on some fellow fans.

Please learn to respect that someone else might have a different opinion to you.

If you don't like their opinion, then simply ignore their post.

But swearing at other posters and calling them names, I don't like that, and it makes the forum a not so nice place to visit.

[Kevin Mcleod]

Eh?

[DeepcutHoop]

I wouldn't say Harry got us promoted. I would say Steve Mclaren and a lot of fortune in the final got us promoted.

As he was manager, I'd say it takes a real effort to not give him the credit for our promotion.


However, you can justifiably criticise him for the fact that it was such a struggle, given the squad he had, and the support he got in the transfer market.

You can also criticise him for the absolutely tedious nature of our style of football, tempered of course by the fact that it worked in the end.

And you certainly can want to see him gone this year, based on his inability to change the overall approach, whilst also seemingly incapable of settling on a chosen formation or team.

[QPRDave]

I wouldn't say Harry got us promoted. I would say Steve Mclaren and a lot of fortune in the final got us promoted.

You would........Harry got us promoted and our defence on the day ....

[Marshy]

As he was manager, I'd say it takes a real effort to not give him the credit for our promotion.


However, you can justifiably criticise him for the fact that it was such a struggle, given the squad he had, and the support he got in the transfer market.

You can also criticise him for the absolutely tedious nature of our style of football, tempered of course by the fact that it worked in the end.

And you certainly can want to see him gone this year, based on his inability to change the overall approach, whilst also seemingly incapable of settling on a chosen formation or team.

Well, it's a tough one. From a personal point of view, I would like to thank him for getting us promoted.
From a pragmatic point of view, I can see that Harry getting us promoted wasn't really down to Harry.

It's like if you were managing Barcelona in League Two, I am sure Barcelona would get promoted, but it wouldn't really be down to your managerial skills.

[DeepcutHoop]

Well, it's a tough one. From a personal point of view, I would like to thank him for getting us promoted.
From a pragmatic point of view, I can see that Harry getting us promoted wasn't really down to Harry.

It's like if you were managing Barcelona in League Two, I am sure Barcelona would get promoted, but it wouldn't really be down to your managerial skills.

That's not even close to a fair comparison.

[Marshy]

That's not even close to a fair comparison.

The point I was making was that if we didn't have Harry and had any half decent manager, I am sure we would have got promoted.

[DeepcutHoop]

The point I was making was that if we didn't have Harry and had any half decent manager, I am sure we would have got promoted.

But we had Harry, and we did get promoted.

He deserves the credit that comes with the promotion. I still think he needs to go, and I really don't like him very much either. I just struggle to see how you don't give him the credit for managing us to a promotion, it starts to look like a personal thing at that point.

IMO obviously.

[Marshy]

But we had Harry, and we did get promoted.

He deserves the credit that comes with the promotion. I still think he needs to go, and I really don't like him very much either. I just struggle to see how you don't give him the credit for managing us to a promotion, it starts to look like a personal thing at that point.

IMO obviously.

I think you are not understanding me - perhaps I should clarify.

There is giving credit in the sense of shaking his hand and saying "thanks for fulfilling the task you were given at the beginning of the season, which was to make sure the club got promoted". I can do that.

Then there is looking at what his achievements really were, because to judge his ability, we have to see how hard the task was and how he did. And the task wasn't hard, and he did poorly. Yes, we still got promoted, but to suggest that we got promoted because of Harry's managing ability just isn't true, any half decent manager would have got that team up.

[Stanley]

any half decent manager would have got that team up.

"That team"? You make it sound like he didnt assemble it.

He got us promoted at the end of the day. He did his job.

That's what the record books will say. And the very least he deserves is some credit for that, minus any caveats.

[Marshy]

You know what I mean, any half decent manager who had the team we had and the money we had to spend, would have achieved the same result.

I am giving him credit, I am thanking him. I am just not using the fact he got us promoted to judge him on his managerial ability, just as I wouldn't judge myself on my managerial ability if I went the whole season undefeated as manager of Barcelona in the Ryman League.

[Stanley]

You know what I mean, any half decent manager who had the team we had and the money we had to spend, would have achieved the same result.

But still not giving him credit for the fact that it was a team HE assembled AFTER clearing out all the deadwood.

I am giving him credit, I am thanking him. I am just not using the fact he got us promoted to judge him on his managerial ability, just as I wouldn't judge myself on my managerial ability if I went the whole season undefeated as manager of Barcelona in the Ryman League.

Giving him credit with all your caveats isnt REALLY giving him credit, that much is pretty obvious. But hey, all about opinions as always.

[DeepcutHoop]

I think you are not understanding me - perhaps I should clarify.

There is giving credit in the sense of shaking his hand and saying "thanks for fulfilling the task you were given at the beginning of the season, which was to make sure the club got promoted". I can do that.

Then there is looking at what his achievements really were, because to judge his ability, we have to see how hard the task was and how he did. And the task wasn't hard, and he did poorly. Yes, we still got promoted, but to suggest that we got promoted because of Harry's managing ability just isn't true, any half decent manager would have got that team up.

He didn't do poorly. He got us promoted.

He did it in a fashion that was probably not much fun to watch, and he potentially should have got us up automatically, but doing the job required of you is not doing poorly. It's a damn sight more than a lot of previous managers achieved.

You cannot take his credit away and give it to McLaren at the same time. McLaren had the same tools available, plus he ######ed off to Derby after not many games, and failed to get them promoted.

You do not fluke a promotion over 46 games, even if the goal that finishes the job has an element of good fortune.

[Qprtanpa1]

This entire dialogue boils down to this: staying in the Premier League. If Harry can't turn around our fortunes over the next six games, you make the change. If he does, both owner and manager feel they've given it a proper go. Harry DOES deserve credit for keeping promotion; but at this level that doesn't equate to tenure. Best all.