Westminster / Manchester / London Bridge / Parsons Green attacks

[James1979]

No, and now you're being facetious. The police do not and have never, to my knowledge, committed atrocities like this. This is of a completely different order.

Yeah I was. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. Life too short I think.

[Hubble]

Fair enough mate.

[Tarbie]

I'll tell you something though, I agree that many of these people should not even be in this country. And it was a Blair immigration policy that opened the floodgates. I also agree we have been far too soft in dealing with radical Islamism. I do not believe we should have Islamic faith schools in this country, preaching a religious view of the world that is entirely at odds with modern, rational thinking. We, the ordinary people of this country have been betrayed by successive governments whose interests, it seems to me, are serving themselves and their paymasters, not the general public.

Whilst I am not necessarily a believer in a lot of what the Labour party stand for, I do think that Tony Blair was an excellent leader. He did however make 2 huge mistakes which have directly contributed to our current predicament. His first was years of a very slack immigration policy. The second (which was an absolute howler), was being so quick to back up George Bush in his war on terror.

The second conflict in Iraq should never have happened. The combination of that and 911 is the catalyst for all the terror that we are seeing now!

[Stanley]

Hubble doesn't deserve to be shouted down for expressing his views here. I respect the fact that he's at least put a lot of time into researching the subject. I have an open mind on the subject of false flag attacks as I have looked into it a little (not as much as Hubs). Whilst we all find the matter highly unpalatable I'm not prepared to dismiss it out of hand. The link I posted earlier on Annie Machon to me seems plausible because she and her partner David Shaylor both worked for MI6 and so were privy to a plethora of highly immoral and probably illegal activity by our security services, which they eventually felt compelled to blow the whistle on (not dissimilar to what Ed Snowden did in the US and much of the Wikileaks stuff). The likes of Machon, Shayler and Snowden cannot be dismissed as conspiracy theorists IMO by simple virtue of the fact of their previous careers and the cold hard evidence they had access to. Not to mention the highly lucrative careers (and basic freedoms no less!) they sacrificed for the price of exposing their findings, when it would have been far easier to keep schtum and continue enjoying their very prosperous lifestyles.

[lymehoop]

the trouble with blaming just Blair for opening the floodgates, is that the whole Labour party, not only saw that policy as not a problem, but actually want to continue it

[Tarbie]

the trouble with blaming Blair for opening the floodgates, is that Labour not only saw that policy as not a problem, but actually want to continue it

Absolutely the wrong policy.

Immigration should be blocked in it's entirety in the current climate unless the individuals entering the country are a.) spouses of British citizens, or b) qualified in a profession where we have a skills gap. Secondly they should be fully security checked (i.e. proved unequivocally to be at absolutely no risk to society).

[Jeems]

Too many loopholes which people take advantage of which is frustrating because I know immigration is important to this country, but not at current levels. Case in point, I met a girl from Canada - lovely person, but she married a Spanish guy just so she could live here. Sham marriages happen all the time and just because they are cheery, white and "fit in" doesn't mean it should be allowed.

[brightonr]

Absolutely the wrong policy.

Immigration should be blocked in it's entirety in the current climate unless the individuals entering the country are a.) spouses of British citizens, or b) qualified in a profession where we have a skills gap. Secondly they should be fully security checked (i.e. proved unequivocally to be at absolutely no risk to society).

When the next one hits the US, there will be the anti-Trump travel ban mob preaching yet more tolerance towards this scum. And it will proven to have been entirely avoidable.

Perhaps they'll dress it up as another "accident" like they did with the Times Square incident.

Why can't these morons just wake up to the facts?

[Tarbie]

When the next one hits the US, there will be the anti-Trump travel ban mob preaching yet more tolerance towards this scum. And it will proven to have been entirely avoidable.

Perhaps they'll dress it up as another "accident" like they did with the Times Square incident.

Why can't these morons just wake up to the facts?

I actually disagree with Trumps travel ban. That was born completely out of ignorance.

I do completely agree with far more thorough security checks on who we allow through our borders however. Particularly if an individual comes from, or has spent time in a high risk territory.

[brightonr]

I actually disagree with Trumps travel ban. That was born completely out of ignorance.

I do completely agree with far more thorough security checks on who we allow through our borders however. Particularly if an individual comes from, or has spent time in a high risk territory.

It wasn't ever meant to be permanent though Tarbie. What it would have done is sent out a clear message. Not only to those intent on perpetrating such acts, but also a small indication to the innocent people that their leaders are taking the threat seriously. Would be nice if the UK government had realised that a person of suspicion, recently travelling out to Libya and then back shortly after was a threat.

Heaven forbid we offend the sensitivities of the Muslim community by protecting our people against those who wouldn't know what a true Muslim is if one slapped them round the face. The irony is that the quicker we all pull together and act in respect of ridding our country of such filth, then the genuine Muslims would be safer from retaliation by the similarly stupid thugs that are now about to attack them.

[Tarbie]

It wasn't ever meant to be permanent though Tarbie. What it would have done is sent out a clear message. Not only to those intent on perpetrating such acts, but also a small indication to the innocent people that their leaders are taking the threat seriously. Would be nice if the UK government had realised that a person of suspicion, recently travelling out to Libya and then back shortly after was a threat.

Heaven forbid we offend the sensitivities of the Muslim community by protecting our people against those who wouldn't know what a true Muslim is if one slapped them round the face. The irony is that the quicker we all pull together and act in respect of ridding our country of such filth, then the genuine Muslims would be safer from retaliation by the similarly stupid thugs that are now about to attack them.

In my opinion (and do bear in mind that I know the Muslim world pretty well), what Trump did in trying to blanket ban Islamic countries was always going to insight hatred from certain pockets of the Islamic world, and further exacerbate the problems that we are trying to prevent. As I've said a few times on this thread, extreme reactions from the West is what ISIS wants because it gives them a platform to spread more hatred towards Western philosophy.

The correct way to deal with things, in my opinion is to up security measures. Implement a policy of background checking individuals from high risk countries and reject their application if there are any doubts. It's what countries like the UAE, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait have been doing for years. And despite their proximity to all the unrest, and their high population of Western expats, they remain reasonably safe from terror attacks.

[lymehoop]

In my opinion (and do bear in mind that I know the Muslim world pretty well), what Trump did in trying to blanket ban Islamic countries was always going to insight hatred from certain pockets of the Islamic world, and further exacerbate the problems that we are trying to prevent. As I've said a few times on this thread, extreme reactions from the West is what ISIS wants because it gives them a platform to spread more hatred towards Western philosophy.

The correct way to deal with things in my opinion is simply to up security measures. Implement a policy of background checking individuals from high risk countries and reject their application if there are any doubts. It's what countries like the UAE, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait have been doing for years. And despite their proximity to all the unrest, and their high population of Western expats, they remain reasonably safe from terror attacks.

you could stop everyone who has murder and mayhem in mind getting in. But what about the ones already here? Don't think we are talking just 10's of thousands either. Us, Europe in general, are in the proverbial brown stuff big time

[Tarbie]

you could stop everyone who has murder and mayhem in mind getting in. But what about the ones already here? Don't think we are talking just 10's of thousands either. Us, Europe in general, are in the proverbial brown stuff big time

Apparently we have over 3,000 people in the UK on MI5's watch list. That's a huge amount of people to be able to track. Clearly something more robust needs to be put in place!

[James1979]

Hubble doesn't deserve to be shouted down for expressing his views here. I respect the fact that he's at least put a lot of time into researching the subject. I have an open mind on the subject of false flag attacks as I have looked into it a little (not as much as Hubs). Whilst we all find the matter highly unpalatable I'm not prepared to dismiss it out of hand. The link I posted earlier on Annie Machon to me seems plausible because she and her partner David Shaylor both worked for MI6 and so were privy to a plethora of highly immoral and probably illegal activity by our security services, which they eventually felt compelled to blow the whistle on (not dissimilar to what Ed Snowden did in the US and much of the Wikileaks stuff). The likes of Machon, Shayler and Snowden cannot be dismissed as conspiracy theorists IMO by simple virtue of the fact of their previous careers and the cold hard evidence they had access to. Not to mention the highly lucrative careers (and basic freedoms no less!) they sacrificed for the price of exposing their findings, when it would have been far easier to keep schtum and continue enjoying their very prosperous lifestyles.

Stanley, as I said to Hubble, I can't really be too bothered to debate this much further as neither of us will sway in our opinions. We're probably too old!
But, the Israeli embassy bombing (whether true or not the claims) is in a completely different ball park to manchester incident. You cannot compare the 2. Our government went out to kill young kids at pop concert??? Come on.

[Stanley]

Stanley, as I said to Hubble, I can't really be too bothered to debate this much further as neither of us will sway in our opinions. We're probably too old!
But, the Israeli embassy bombing (whether true or not the claims) is in a completely different ball park to manchester incident. You cannot compare the 2. Our government went out to kill young kids at pop concert??? Come on.

I pray to God you're right James. It's just very hard to know who's voice you can trust these days. In no way I'm saying I think this was a false flag attack, only that I keep an open mind on alternative explanations.

One thing I did hear today from one of the concert-goers is that there was absolutely no security checks being done on people's bags as they entered the venue. How on earth is this still allowed to happen at big public events in the current climate?