Europe. In or out?

[WE ARE QPR!]

100% OUT! Merkel is slowly but surely destroying Europe. If we don't take control of our borders we are finished. Remember once these "Refugees" get EU citizenship and Turkey gets the right to EU visas JIHAD will be free flowing into the Europe & the UK uncontrolled via Syria & the Middle East!

[Shania]

probably not Shania, for me it''s about losing our identity, bit by bit it's being chipped away

Ok, I see. OK. Thanks. From outside it will also be interesting to see how you now will manage to deal with the economic side of things aswell. Good luck, anyway

[Hoop-du-Jour]

Well for starters ,they are implementing the Trade Union reform bill ,trying to take away ,workers rights to withdraw labour ,i dont see them trying to tackle companies that break employment agreements . There is an ever increasing gap between the rich and the poor , with workers in insecure employment ,too scared to stand up for their rights , we are heading back to Victorian values .

Heading back to Victorian values whilst in the EU, what use it remaining then?

[vespa]

Heading back to Victorian values whilst in the EU, what use it remaining then?

To be honest ,thats my problem , i dont know whether the EU is trying to keep the Torys in check or whether they are part of the problem ! When ive worked that one out ,i`ll know which way to vote .

[vespa]

I'm a staunch RMT man myself Vesp and agree with you 100%

Were going to need as many people as possible to stay staunch Jim , the way the DFT are coming after us at the moment .

[Hoop-du-Jour]

To be honest ,thats my problem , i dont know whether the EU is trying to keep the Torys in check or whether they are part of the problem ! When ive worked that one out ,i`ll know which way to vote .

The EU changed working regulations a couple of years ago on rights to break times during shifts, they went from 15 mins every four hours to 20 mins every six hours. It's small erosions like this that remind me the EU has coporate profit margins at heart more than workers rights. Working class always get shafted one way or another to appease profit margins, laying the blame solely on one political party is a bit naive and shortsighted. As I've already said the Tories have increased pay packets by quite some way in their tenure so far and I feel that's outweighed anything done in the previous 20 years for the low paid.

It's all about opinions and personal experience I suppose and that's just mine. Vote how you will, I doubt much will change down on the bottom rungs of the ladder whatever is decided, shite always obeys gravity

[Jeems]

Out despite working with loads of Europeans, all top people but its time to govern our own country again.

Make no mistake, if we do get out, a massive sh*t storm will occur but I'm confident it will calm down quickly and all will be well.

[Ramsey is god]

Very true, best not to believe a word any of them say. What it all boils down to is do you wish to pool sovereignty with 27 other nations to provide us with stronger trading power. Or do you wish for us to be governed solely by our parliament and courts of law, with our sole interests at heart.

Thats not what it all boils down to, at all.

[gaza09]

Thats not what it all boils down to, at all.

Yes it is, the rest of it is just this could/might happen, it's utter nonsense to think trade would stop just because we have left a political union with just a handful of countries

[Jimmy Floyd Rabbit]

Thats what it boils down to.
Vote on what we're led to believe, by people who nearly always have their own agenda or are basing their opinions on supposition. Or vote on the facts as we know them. Leaving means we're not dictated to by unelected EU officials and we will have more power to control our borders.
As has been said, it's the low paid and construction workers in particular who have suffered the most. Your average middle class family are loving it. Cheaper extensions/loft conversions and their houses cleaned and ridiculously named children cared for by someone who charges peanuts. No disrespect to anybody who comes to Britain for a better life, in fact hats off to them for having the gumption to do it. At some point however, infrastructure can't cope and in this climate of savage cuts to schools, social housing and the NHS, a line has to be drawn.

Bang on, and exactly how I see it.

Out.

[FACTS]

^^Rubbish, the middle class aren't the winners here, it's the top 5% or so who are doing well off this. Cheap labour and more potential customers. Everyone else is worse off than 10 years ago, and this is a global thing, not just here.

I think we're ####ed either way tbh. Labour are finished here for the foreseeable future and when they do get into power it will be New Labour / Blair mark 2. So if we leave the Tories will be shaping the country. On the other hand the EU is a basket case./

[Hove Ranger]

This wont interest most on here (it is aimed at generally left voters but it may interest right voters who would like a different perspective) but its a debate that I attended recently. EU/Europe Debate on the Left - In or Out ? With Caroline Lucas & Tom Hickey. It was hosted at Brighton uni which is renowned for being very leftist hence the reason for it being aimed towards left voters. The 2 people involved are Caroline Lucas (MP for Brighton, Green party Honcho etc etc) and Tom Hickey (a good friend, senior lecturer at Brighton uni in politics and philosophy, staunch socialist and keen on leaving the EU). It is an hour long so be prepared. Enjoy.....or not if you're not a "loony lefty"

[Itsonlyagame]

^^Rubbish, the middle class aren't the winners here, it's the top 5% or so who are doing well off this. Cheap labour and more potential customers. Everyone else is worse off than 10 years ago, and this is a global thing, not just here.

I think we're ####ed either way tbh. Labour are finished here for the foreseeable future and when they do get into power it will be New Labour / Blair mark 2. So if we leave the Tories will be shaping the country. On the other hand the EU is a basket case./

Rubbish eh ?
So your average middle class homeowner who decides to have an extension built doesn't benefit from the huge influx of Eastern European labour which has swamped the building trade. Not only has this influx driven down labour costs, Eastern European builders are more inclined to accept huge amounts of cash for their services thus saving the punter even more money in tax. Or the fact that the vast majority of nannies and cleaners are also now Eastern European for the same reasons. Those are the facts FACTS.

[jmelanie]

Rubbish eh ?
So your average middle class homeowner who decides to have an extension built doesn't benefit from the huge influx of Eastern European labour which has swamped the building trade. Not only has this influx driven down labour costs, Eastern European builders are more inclined to accept huge amounts of cash for their services thus saving the punter even more money in tax. Or the fact that the vast majority of nannies and cleaners are also now Eastern European for the same reasons. Those are the facts FACTS.

Yes in them not paying tax, our taxes go up and there is less money for the NHS. Also if we leave the EU, I suspect these workers would have to leave because they are not working here legally. Legally employed immigrants will be allowed to stay.

[FACTS]

Rubbish eh ?
So your average middle class homeowner who decides to have an extension built doesn't benefit from the huge influx of Eastern European labour which has swamped the building trade. Not only has this influx driven down labour costs, Eastern European builders are more inclined to accept huge amounts of cash for their services thus saving the punter even more money in tax. Or the fact that the vast majority of nannies and cleaners are also now Eastern European for the same reasons. Those are the facts FACTS.

I have mates in the trade and understand that cheap labour from Eastern Europe is hard to compete with, but the building trade has ALWAYS been cash in hand and off the books. And building work isn't a regular expense for 'middle class' people. It's not like you do a loft conversion every couple of years. Most people getting a loft conversion aren't paying the labourers directly anyway, they'll get someone to come in and arrange it - if anything it's the site manager or owner of the building firm who is benefitting there. Nannying is an unskilled job that will always attract unskilled workers, but what proportion of houses have a nanny? Not many, and most who do won't have them for more than a couple of years.

Maybe we've got different ideas about what 'middle class' means. It's not the guy who gets a cleaner to come round for 2 hours a week who is winning, it's the guy that owns a cleaning company who has 50 of them on contracts.

The middle class of 10, 15, 20 years ago are worse off now than they were. ?Their taxes go towards the EU the same as anyone, in fact they prob pay MUCH more tax than they did then, plus prices have risen a lot.. It's the truly rich that have got richer, and this is a GLOBAL pattern, happening inside and outside the EU.