Europe. In or out?

[Ramsey is god]

I agree Rams, it's far more than this 'closing the borders' issue - far more than that.

Here's my take on it. We're at a crisis point in modern European history. We are facing not just the influx of millions of refugees and migrants from the Middle East (as well of course from elsewhere in the world and within Europe), but this huge interface, for want of a better world, between two cultures: The European culture and the Arabic/Islamic culture. How we deal with this will define what happens here and in the rest of the world for years to come.

For my money, we need to be united whilst this gargantuan process takes place. Being isolated (which we will be in many respects), is not how we need to be during this process. We need to remain at the heart of Europe and that means at the heart of the European union. We need to be leading and directing, not watching from the sidelines. Forget the impossible to work out economic potentials of IN or OUT for a moment, because this - in my opinion - is far bigger. It's about how we want the course of European culture and everything we believe in (making a large assumption that most of you like a form of social democracy that we have here and in Europe) to evolve. Europe can have an extremely beneficial influence on the process. At the moment it is floundering. PArt of the reason it's floundering is the UK referendum. This only adds to the uncertainty. By voting to stay IN Europe, we give the whole European idea a massive boost in the arm: we say: we stand for European culture, European values and European social democracy. How we vote and what happens in Europe will have a vast effect on how the near future of the West unfolds. Let's be at the centre of this, standing united in our values, rather than cutting ourselves off from it.

I am far from blind to the flaws in the EU. I am a big fan of sovereignty and am against unelected bureaucrats, but I think right now, the situation is bigger than that - and the flaws represent only one aspect of European Union, not the totality.

I knew we would agree on something eventually Hubs

[Ramsey is god]

ok, so i disagree with you opinion, i therefor must be wrong

Why is almost every comment in this thread about border control? are you that naive to think leaving the EU is all about border control?

Seems to me the general thesis in this thread is "i dont care if the country falls to sh!t, as long as we stop letting eastern Europeans in"

and no the argument isnt about "the ability to decide who we allow access to it", its about leaving the EU and the negative/positive effect it will have on our economy.

I dont like the comments about the polish coming and taking our jobs. Find this demeaning and generally from what i have found in life, those who make such moans, tend to be those who dont want to get off there a$$ and go find work. I put these sort of slanders into the same category as people saying "Muslims are terrorists". Most of the time most probably not meant in a racist way, but comes from simple minded folk non the less.

as for the USA / Australia point, they are far bigger economies who are able to thrive on their own. We are not the power they are.

Not for one second saying, vote in or you are wrong, but more that i feel the majority of people dont really know the consequences and the fall out of what they are actually being asked to vote for, they are being blinded by this "border control" issue.

no personal dig at you at all Gaza, most probably a dig at the political parties involved who seem to find it hard to explain the real effects of this.

[WeAreQPR12]

ok, so i disagree with you opinion, i therefor must be wrong

Why is almost every comment in this thread about border control? are you that naive to think leaving the EU is all about border control?

Seems to me the general thesis in this thread is "i dont care if the country falls to sh!t, as long as we stop letting eastern Europeans in"

and no the argument isnt about "the ability to decide who we allow access to it", its about leaving the EU and the negative/positive effect it will have on our economy.

I dont like the comments about the polish coming and taking our jobs. Find this demeaning and generally from what i have found in life, those who make such moans, tend to be those who dont want to get off there a$$ and go find work. I put these sort of slanders into the same category as people saying "Muslims are terrorists". Most of the time most probably not meant in a racist way, but comes from simple minded folk non the less.

as for the USA / Australia point, they are far bigger economies who are able to thrive on their own. We are not the power they are.

Not for one second saying, vote in or you are wrong, but more that i feel the majority of people dont really know the consequences and the fall out of what they are actually being asked to vote for, they are being blinded by this "border control" issue.

no personal dig at you at all Gaza, most probably a dig at the political parties involved who seem to find it hard to explain the real effects of this.

The line that it will get control on our boarders has become an irrelevant one, because they're all bloody already over here.

We don't know how it will effect businesses in this country but i'd imagine it won't have much of an effect.

The fact we do know we will save 350m and soon to be 400m has to swing it for me. That money can be used to help/aid people living and contributing to this country.

[gaza09]

ok, so i disagree with you opinion, i therefor must be wrong

Why is almost every comment in this thread about border control? are you that naive to think leaving the EU is all about border control?

Seems to me the general thesis in this thread is "i dont care if the country falls to sh!t, as long as we stop letting eastern Europeans in"

and no the argument isnt about "the ability to decide who we allow access to it", its about leaving the EU and the negative/positive effect it will have on our economy.

I dont like the comments about the polish coming and taking our jobs. Find this demeaning and generally from what i have found in life, those who make such moans, tend to be those who dont want to get off there a$$ and go find work. I put these sort of slanders into the same category as people saying "Muslims are terrorists". Most of the time most probably not meant in a racist way, but comes from simple minded folk non the less.

as for the USA / Australia point, they are far bigger economies who are able to thrive on their own. We are not the power they are.

Not for one second saying, vote in or you are wrong, but more that i feel the majority of people dont really know the consequences and the fall out of what they are actually being asked to vote for, they are being blinded by this "border control" issue.

no personal dig at you at all Gaza, most probably a dig at the political parties involved who seem to find it hard to explain the real effects of this.

Whereas I disagree with your opinion, therefore must be a racist?

As for not being able to thrive on our own, we are the 5th largest economy in the world, far larger then Australia.

The reason most people are discussing immigration and boarder controls is that it is the most visual effect of our EU membership.

We could argue about econmics, but the truth is no one actually knows what will happen either way. If we leave we could struggle to trade the pound could fall inflation could rise etc.. But we could also prosper without the burden of all the EU regulations companies have to follow (even if they don't trade with the EU)
If we vote to stay we will be staying in the worlds only declining trading block. We will be shacking ourselves to a single market in which our share of trade is in decline, we now trade more with the rest of the world then we do the EU.

[Shepherds Mush]

Mmmmm....not entirely sure this thread is QPR related....

[scuberry]

For all you younger generation who won't know what it is like to be out of europe,trust me,it was better ,MUCH,MUCH BETTER ,just bring back control to us,they need us more than we need them,we will never be a little boy lost standing on the sidelines,but we can decide on whats best for Britain not some faceless,non elected Brussels Burocrat !!

[Ramsey is god]

Whereas I disagree with your opinion, therefore must be a racist?

As for not being able to thrive on our own, we are the 5th largest economy in the world, far larger then Australia.

The reason most people are discussing immigration and boarder controls is that it is the most visual effect of our EU membership.

We could argue about econmics, but the truth is no one actually knows what will happen either way. If we leave we could struggle to trade the pound could fall inflation could rise etc.. But we could also prosper without the burden of all the EU regulations companies have to follow (even if they don't trade with the EU)
If we vote to stay we will be staying in the worlds only declining trading block. We will be shacking ourselves to a single market in which our share of trade is in decline, we now trade more with the rest of the world then we do the EU.

Not called you a racist once on here.
5th Largest economy....currently....will change if we leave.
said it yourself for me....huge gamble to take and if it fails the repercussions will take centuries to rectify.

Why do people think the borders will be more controlled but by the same logic state you dont know how it would effect our economy.....dont know anything untill it actually happens, but far more information that indicates our economy will suffer than prosper.

no more on this thread for me, started out a good debate, soon turned the usual way.

[Ramsey is god]

Mmmmm....not entirely sure this thread is QPR related....

might effect what players we can buy.......bit of a stretch i grant you, but its all quiet on the QPR front for now.

[dogsrrs]

One thing your right about the younger voters that believe we should stay in just don't know anything other than now ,

[Shepherds Mush]

For all you younger generation who won't know what it is like to be out of europe,trust me,it was better ,MUCH,MUCH BETTER

Personally if leaving the EU means Snickers becomes Marathon again, then I'm all for it.

[Itsonlyagame]

ok, so i disagree with you opinion, i therefor must be wrong

Why is almost every comment in this thread about border control? are you that naive to think leaving the EU is all about border control?

Seems to me the general thesis in this thread is "i dont care if the country falls to sh!t, as long as we stop letting eastern Europeans in"

and no the argument isnt about "the ability to decide who we allow access to it", its about leaving the EU and the negative/positive effect it will have on our economy.

I dont like the comments about the polish coming and taking our jobs. Find this demeaning and generally from what i have found in life, those who make such moans, tend to be those who dont want to get off there a$$ and go find work. I put these sort of slanders into the same category as people saying "Muslims are terrorists". Most of the time most probably not meant in a racist way, but comes from simple minded folk non the less.

as for the USA / Australia point, they are far bigger economies who are able to thrive on their own. We are not the power they are.

Not for one second saying, vote in or you are wrong, but more that i feel the majority of people dont really know the consequences and the fall out of what they are actually being asked to vote for, they are being blinded by this "border control" issue.

no personal dig at you at all Gaza, most probably a dig at the political parties involved who seem to find it hard to explain the real effects of this.

How is saying the Polish take some of our jobs and calling all Muslims terrorists similar ?
The Polish, along with many other people of Eastern European origin do take jobs which could be filled by people who are born here, that's a fact.
You then accuse people who say such things of slander, yet in the same sentence accuse the same people of being too lazy to get off their ar$es to look for a job. Laughable.

[gaza09]

Not called you a racist once on here.
5th Largest economy....currently....will change if we leave.
said it yourself for me....huge gamble to take and if it fails the repercussions will take centuries to rectify.

Why do people think the borders will be more controlled but by the same logic state you dont know how it would effect our economy.....dont know anything untill it actually happens, but far more information that indicates our economy will suffer than prosper.

no more on this thread for me, started out a good debate, soon turned the usual way.

There is a risk to leaving the EU and a risk to staying in it.
Since I prefer to take a risk where the power to mitigate it is in my hands rather then in those of people who do not necessarily have mine or Britains best interests at heart, I will be voting to leave.

It was a good debate before you started to call people names for daring to hold a different point of view from you.
I don't think I or anyone else was disrespectful towards you before that.

[Ramsey is god]

There is a risk to leaving the EU and a risk to staying in it.
Since I prefer to take a risk where the power to mitigate it is in my hands rather then in those of people who do not necessarily have mine or Britains best interests at heart, I will be voting to leave.

It was a good debate before you started to call people names for daring to hold a different point of view from you.
I don't think I or anyone else was disrespectful towards you before that.

"left wing nut jobs" and similar. who have i called names?
justified my casual racism comment which is perfectly true.
"you are wrong" as i had a different opinion to yours.

quite hypocritical post from you really.

[gaza09]

"left wing nut jobs" and similar. who have i called names?
justified my casual racism comment which is perfectly true.
"you are wrong" as i had a different opinion to yours.

quite hypocritical post from you really.

But you were wrong on the fact we can't stop people from entering this country who have criminal convictions.
And you implied in your post that anyone concerned with immigration and boarder controls were racist, it was only after that other posters called a "left wing nut job"
I suggest you read this thread back

[Ramsey is god]

But you were wrong on the fact we can't stop people from entering this country who have criminal convictions.
And you implied in your post that anyone concerned with immigration and boarder controls were racist, it was only after that other posters called a "left wing nut job"
I suggest you read this thread back

post 44 - long before i really commented.
nope, never implied that at all....please read post back as i have justified racist comment....
I said, we will never be a country who stops people entering who have criminal convictions (unless serious/terrorist) like US, Aus. not our way EU or no EU.

have a re-read.