Europe. In or out?

[Snaxo]

I trust Farage, I did trust Cameron and Osborne, but not any more, I would not trust any Liebour politican as far as I could throw him or her.

When I said Fellow Briton, I meant the British nation, that includes Liebour, by the way.

How can anyone seriously trust Farage? I mean - wtaf. I don't trust Cameron or Osbourne at all - but they are 'capable'. Boris is untrustworthy and likely incapable. The only bloody reason Boris is voting to leave is that if that is the result - it presents him with his best chance of Tory party leadership! The slogan from Boris is not 'take back control' it's - 'let me take control' ;-)

[cross it Dave]

I have not lived there, no, but I work alongside the French (and many other countries both in and out of the EU on a daily basis). I spent half hour with the French team on Monday (as I do weekly), and will speak to members of that team (currently scheduled) later today and tomorrow. They are a proud independent nation, with a fantastic history - similar to us - and yet they desire to be a part of the EU where they recognise partnership and compromise is important to tackle many of the key issues, not just of Europe - but the world. Of course the far right in France is pushing for their own referendum - no surprise there!

What I do know is that if Britain leaves the EU - France will battle not to let Britain retain all of it's access to the EU on a similar basis - as they believe that sends a terrible message to the rest of the EU. I can empathise with that point of you.

So what's your point?

oh contraire mon ames. s'il vous plaît lire ci-dessous

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/654175/French-voters-demand-Frexit-EU-referendum-Germany-UK-Brexit

[cross it Dave]

How can anyone seriously trust Farage? I mean - wtaf. I don't trust Cameron or Osbourne at all - but they are 'capable'. Boris is untrustworthy and likely incapable. The only bloody reason Boris is voting to leave is that if that is the result - it presents him with his best chance of Tory party leadership! The slogan from Boris is not 'take back control' it's - 'let me take control' ;-)

4 million did last May with their vote, if Brexit does not happen tomorrow, then in 2020 there will be millions more who trust Farage.

[cross it Dave]

The BBC are reporting this lunchtime that Cameron is now promising more EU immigration reforms.

Perhaps I should send him Furher Merkel speech just to remind him.

She said no Dave, were you not listening.

[jmelanie]

I have not lived there, no, but I work alongside the French (and many other countries both in and out of the EU on a daily basis). I spent half hour with the French team on Monday (as I do weekly), and will speak to members of that team (currently scheduled) later today and tomorrow. They are a proud independent nation, with a fantastic history - similar to us - and yet they desire to be a part of the EU where they recognise partnership and compromise is important to tackle many of the key issues, not just of Europe - but the world. Of course the far right in France is pushing for their own referendum - no surprise there!

What I do know is that if Britain leaves the EU - France will battle not to let Britain retain all of it's access to the EU on a similar basis - as they believe that sends a terrible message to the rest of the EU. I can empathise with that point of view.
So what's your point?

The French won't really be bothered either way whether or not we leave the EU. They have far more problems of their own to sort out. They are in danger of becoming a third world country which is sad for a country with their history. Over 2 million skilled French workers have left France (most for London) because of their high tax system (which was dropped because it simply did not work). On a personal level, I took a four year degree at the University of Nice on European relations after the Second World War. My husband, whom I met in Paris (another story) has a Ph.D. in International Relations and Modern French history (specializing in the interwar period). It takes many years to understand the French (I don't think they even understand themselves). The French people are now disillusioned with the EU. This is because the country is doing so badly and of course they blame it on the EU, even though it is there own government which is responsible (though in part this is because they followed EU directives to the letter like the 35 hour week).

The French themselves could never understand why the English followed all of the directives of the EU. They generally only followed the ones that suited them and this worked well for a long time. In order to join the Euro they fudged the figures by including the sale of French Telecom in their annual figures, as if they would be selling French Telecom every year.

Partnership and compromise to the French means they are partners with other countries and they compromise when it is in their own interest.

[Snaxo]

4 million did last May with their vote, if Brexit does not happen tomorrow, then in 2020 there will be millions more who trust Farage.

If the UK decides fundamentally to reject full independence, I'm not sure how that strengthens the position of the UK Independence party...

If you think the majority of the UK electorate will ever vote Farage in, you are truly in fantasy land

[Snaxo]

The French won't really be bothered either way whether or not we leave the EU. They have far more problems of their own to sort out. They are in danger of becoming a third world country which is sad for a country with their history. Over 2 million skilled French workers have left France (most for London) because of their high tax system (which was dropped because it simply did not work). On a personal level, I took a four year degree at the University of Nice on European relations after the Second World War. My husband, whom I met in Paris (another story) has a Ph.D. in International Relations and Modern French history (specializing in the interwar period). It takes many years to understand the French (I don't think they even understand themselves). The French people are now disillusioned with the EU. This is because the country is doing so badly and of course they blame it on the EU, even though it is there own government which is responsible (though in part this is because they followed EU directives to the letter like the 35 hour week).

The French themselves could never understand why the English followed all of the directives of the EU. They generally only followed the ones that suited them and this worked well for a long time. In order to join the Euro they fudged the figures by including the sale of French Telecom in their annual figures, as if they would be selling French Telecom every year.

Partnership and compromise to the French means they are partners with other countries and they compromise when it is in their own interest.

Right. And they might not be bothered - but as I said, the message from their diplomats is that if it happens - they will try to ensure the UK does not retain all its previous access on the same terms etc. Many similarities to the UK in other points you validly make. Mostly, it's our own Government doing the damage, rather than the EU. Re: Partnership and Compromise - I think all countries enter with that in mind. However, clearly to reach policy agreements there sometimes has to be compromise on the level of compromise.

[cross it Dave]

Millions of disillusioned Labour and Tories voters who are fed up with being in the fantasy land, commonly known as the European Union.

Maybe we won't need another vote, seems the French want out, the Swedes want out, the Austrians certainlty do, is it falling apart?

[gaza09]

Utter, utter crap. You do realise that virtually no EU decision gets made without the consent of ALL of the big 3 member states - Germany, France and the UK. So pretty much every EU rule we abide by (just 13% of our total legislation) has already been agreed on by our own Government.
If you are so worried about the power of the French and Germans then leave the EU and let them take full control....then I'm sure we'll get very favourable trade terms (based on your opinion of them) and by the way, don't for 1 second come back with a statement along the lines of 'we don't need to trade with France or Germany'....

13% of laws 61% of regulations are legislated by the EU and our elected MPs can do nothing about them

[cross it Dave]

13% of laws 61% of regulations are legislated by the EU and our elected MPs can do nothing about them

Stop muddying the water with facts Gaz

Especially immigration, as we know to our cost

[Olly]

However, again, the weight of expertise from around the world suggests it's a wrong move on many key factors. But that's ok - experts of course are always wrong, especially in the unusual situation that there is so much consensus. They might be - but it's much much too big a risk.

I would say that the global warming campaign is a lot of nonsense from an equally if not larger consensus. There is an issue with pollution, but it's being dressed up as global warming. There is no 100% evidence anywhere that we humans are causing global warming rather than natural earth warming cycles which have happened over billions of years of Earth's history, as have documented ice ages.

The recent conference where hundreds of politicians have promised to keep global warming to under 2 degrees is unbelievable.

'At the Paris climate conference (COP21) in December 2015, 195 countries adopted the first-ever universal, legally binding global climate deal. The agreement sets out a global action plan to put the world on track to avoid dangerous climate change by limiting global warming to well below 2°C. The agreement is due to enter into force in 2020.'

I called it the King Canute conference, where each participant thinks they're God, and Masters of Nature.

Then there's the scientific theories of how the universe started, Big Bang and all that. When the experts are nearly all in agreement, that's the trigger for a new theory and on it goes all over again. Multitudes of Experts become sheep. Going wrong with confidence is called logic.

[cross it Dave]

Right. And they might not be bothered - but as I said, the message from their diplomats is that if it happens - they will try to ensure the UK does not retain all its previous access on the same terms etc. Many similarities to the UK in other points you validly make. Mostly, it's our own Government doing the damage, rather than the EU. Re: Partnership and Compromise - I think all countries enter with that in mind. However, clearly to reach policy agreements there sometimes has to be compromise on the level of compromise.

I wonder what Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, the French wine industry, EDF, Orange etc will say about that, oh la la, mon dieu.

[lymehoop]

only 8,000 immigrants chose to move to Scotland last year. 270,000+ chose the rest of Britain. No wonder the Scots have no problem with mass immigration

[CroydonCaptainJack]

I am not sure I have posted on this thread but for what its worth I am out and here is why.
Our PM (who I liked) said he would get the right deal in Europe and if he didn't he would recommend we vote out. Well he didn't get the deal but went back on his word.
Now I know there is scaremongering on both sides but I found the fact that it was being done on such a scale by the PM and Chancellor shocking given their position in office.
Finally and most improtantly for me is that i think that it is ultimately a doomed project and we need to distance ourselves from it. At some point we will be asked to joing the Euro itself and that won't happen so why hang around now. I also really object to the gravy train that is Brussels. They seem accountable to no-one.
I know it is a leap of faith and in fact it would probably be much safer for me to vote remain as we import loads of product from Italy, Spain and Portugal where I work. In fact my MD comes into my office most days to try and change my mind but I feel it is a matter of principal.
There, and I didn't even mention immigration. Doh!!

[Kevin Mcleod]

Daily Mails 20 reasons to vote LEAVE

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3653526/Undecided-Read-essential-guide-giving-20-reasons-choose-leave.html