Europe. In or out?

[gaza09]

Why would leaving give us more control? All the regulations Boris is always banging on about would still be there and if we want to export to mainland Europe, the world's most lucrative market, we would still have to abide by the same regulations. The only difference is we would have no say in the drawing up of those regulations.

Some in the out campaign have admitted that we might have to pay 4% tariffs every time we export to Europe - any idea how many jobs that would lose. The economy is already starting to tank because loads of companies are refusing to invest. Nissan for one - who makes more cars in Sunderland than Italy does in its entire country - have already said they would leave.

Those who want to leave must be very wealthy - because clearly they are not bothered about the economy our their financial futures.

So many myths in this thread - e.g. Turkey - there is NO rights for Turks to work here, merely to come here as tourists, as we will freely go there.

you seem to have introduced a few myths of your own into this debate. If we were not to get access to the single market we could trade under WTO tariffs which at current levels of trading would be around £6billion, take into account our annual net fee to the EU is reported at £8billion we would still be better off even without a free trade deal with the EU.
Also Turkey are going to be given visa free access to the schengan area, which we are not apart of so they will not becoming here, and we will not have visa free travel there.

[vanhoop]

Why would leaving give us more control? All the regulations Boris is always banging on about would still be there and if we want to export to mainland Europe, the world's most lucrative market, we would still have to abide by the same regulations. The only difference is we would have no say in the drawing up of those regulations.

Some in the out campaign have admitted that we might have to pay 4% tariffs every time we export to Europe - any idea how many jobs that would lose. The economy is already starting to tank because loads of companies are refusing to invest. Nissan for one - who makes more cars in Sunderland than Italy does in its entire country - have already said they would leave.

Those who want to leave must be very wealthy - because clearly they are not bothered about the economy our their financial futures.

So many myths in this thread - e.g. Turkey - there is NO rights for Turks to work here, merely to come here as tourists, as we will freely go there.

Sunderland making more cars than Italy says it all . Nissan won't have the balls to stop trading whether we're in or out. Besides the money given to Brussels from us the tax payers can start to look after our own economy . People like Cameron are panicking because they're greedy kanntss who couldn't give a monkey about anybody but themselves. The budget has less lies if we vote out ,and the pennies won't add up!

[vanhoop]

you seem to have introduced a few myths of your own into this debate. If we were not to get access to the single market we could trade under WTO tariffs which at current levels of trading would be around £6billion, take into account our annual net fee to the EU is reported at £8billion we would still be better off even without a free trade deal with the EU.
Also Turkey are going to be given visa free access to the schengan area, which we are not apart of so they will not becoming here, and we will not have visa free travel there.

Stay in tho and the Turks are coming? This country is ####ed , need to out the ones already here that refuse to learn the mother tongue instead of inviting more in! Enough to turn a placid man into a serial killer? Michael Douglas esq

[Jimmy Floyd Rabbit]

So many myths in this thread - e.g. Turkey - there is NO rights for Turks to work here, merely to come here as tourists, as we will freely go there.

LOOOOOL

Yea because every "tourist" who comes here goes home don't they

[gaza09]

Stay in tho and the Turks are coming? This country is ####ed , need to out the ones already here that refuse to learn the mother tongue instead of inviting more in! Enough to turn a placid man into a serial killer? Michael Douglas esq

Oh defiantly, Cameron is on record with his support for turkey joining the EU, and mad Merkel wants to fast track their application.
Which would basically mean moving our borders to boarder Syria and Iraq, not the best idea really

[lymehoop]

Makes me laugh the Government putting this to a public vote. If it all goes t*ts up then they've got an instant excuse.

no, they'll do what they did to the Dutch and Irish. Have a 2nd vote until us pesky Britishers give the result Merkel et al demand

[Ramsey is god]

I don't just believe it, I know it to be true I've worked in the security sector. We are not part of schengen but all that means is we check if people have an EU passport. Even if when checking their passport we find they have criminal convictions we can only refuse entry if we can provide evidence we believe they're a direct risk to the public, which is pretty much impossible without a crystal ball.

I think the big misunderstanding is on your part. But don't take my word for it, I could show you the gravestones of people killed by EU nationals who entered this country with previous criminal convictions in their home countries. These people would never have been allowed entry into this country if they did not have an EU passport.

Think we will have to just disagree on this one then. Any man/woman or child on this earth could commit murder having no previous criminal record, so for you to think it is just EU nationals coming into the UK who do this is absurd. Those who have a criminal past in other nations across the world are not refused entry into the UK, so why do you think this is a EU problem.

If by thinking leaving the EU will solve this problem, it will not. We will never refuse entry because someone has a criminal past (im talking about bog standard stuff, not terrorist activity). Done their time, rehabilitated....blah blah blah...

Not to say i disagree with the point you are making, as i agree this is a problem, but leaving the EU will not solve it.

[Ramsey is god]

Thread has gone exactly how i thought it would.

Casual racism being banded around with everyone focusing on "closing the borders". Far more at stake than that and can only hope people look at both the positive and negatives of both sides before voting.

Also, it might just be in my area, but there are an awful lot of "vote out" people with their T-shirts and signs everywhere, of which the vast majority are Asian/Hispanic (clearly not the stero-typical Caucasian English type). Do you think this is a "marketing ploy" to try and ensure they get the votes and those who are fearful of what voting out brings in respect of immigration control.

[Hubble]

I agree Rams, it's far more than this 'closing the borders' issue - far more than that.

Here's my take on it. We're at a crisis point in modern European history. We are facing not just the influx of millions of refugees and migrants from the Middle East (as well of course from elsewhere in the world and within Europe), but this huge interface, for want of a better world, between two cultures: The European culture and the Arabic/Islamic culture. How we deal with this will define what happens here and in the rest of the world for years to come.

For my money, we need to be united whilst this gargantuan process takes place. Being isolated (which we will be in many respects), is not how we need to be during this process. We need to remain at the heart of Europe and that means at the heart of the European union. We need to be leading and directing, not watching from the sidelines. Forget the impossible to work out economic potentials of IN or OUT for a moment, because this - in my opinion - is far bigger. It's about how we want the course of European culture and everything we believe in (making a large assumption that most of you like a form of social democracy that we have here and in Europe) to evolve. Europe can have an extremely beneficial influence on the process. At the moment it is floundering. PArt of the reason it's floundering is the UK referendum. This only adds to the uncertainty. By voting to stay IN Europe, we give the whole European idea a massive boost in the arm: we say: we stand for European culture, European values and European social democracy. How we vote and what happens in Europe will have a vast effect on how the near future of the West unfolds. Let's be at the centre of this, standing united in our values, rather than cutting ourselves off from it.

I am far from blind to the flaws in the EU. I am a big fan of sovereignty and am against unelected bureaucrats, but I think right now, the situation is bigger than that - and the flaws represent only one aspect of European Union, not the totality.

[gaza09]

Think we will have to just disagree on this one then. Any man/woman or child on this earth could commit murder having no previous criminal record, so for you to think it is just EU nationals coming into the UK who do this is absurd. Those who have a criminal past in other nations across the world are not refused entry into the UK, so why do you think this is a EU problem.

If by thinking leaving the EU will solve this problem, it will not. We will never refuse entry because someone has a criminal past (im talking about bog standard stuff, not terrorist activity). Done their time, rehabilitated....blah blah blah...

Not to say i disagree with the point you are making, as i agree this is a problem, but leaving the EU will not solve it.

You are plainly wrong, I never said only EU citizens commit murder. We do stop people from outside the EU from entering this country if they've committed serious crimes in their home country, I still can't get a visa to visit the USA because of a crime I committed when I was 17.
The argument is to regain control of our boarders and the ability to decide who we allow access to it.

[gaza09]

Thread has gone exactly how i thought it would.

Casual racism being banded around with everyone focusing on "closing the borders". Far more at stake than that and can only hope people look at both the positive and negatives of both sides before voting.

Also, it might just be in my area, but there are an awful lot of "vote out" people with their T-shirts and signs everywhere, of which the vast majority are Asian/Hispanic (clearly not the stero-typical Caucasian English type). Do you think this is a "marketing ploy" to try and ensure they get the votes and those who are fearful of what voting out brings in respect of immigration control.

What is racist about wanting to control our own immigration policy?
And you will find many ethnic minorities support vote leave because our immigration policy dictated by the EU is discriminating against people from their countries of origin.
Why do mainly white Europeans have a right to come here even if they have no skills to offer, when an Indian doctor has to jump through hoops to gain a working visa? It's just not ethical, we have more ties to those from the commonwealth then some ex soviet outpost.

[Shepherds Mush]

Sunderland making more cars than Italy says it all

No wonder they almost got relegated....

[lymehoop]

What is racist about wanting to control our own immigration policy?
And you will find many ethnic minorities support vote leave because our immigration policy dictated by the EU is discriminating against people from their countries of origin.
Why do mainly white Europeans have a right to come here even if they have no skills to offer, when an Indian doctor has to jump through hoops to gain a working visa? It's just not ethical, we have more ties to those from the commonwealth then some ex soviet outpost.

excellent post gaza, the 'racist' accusation is wearing thin now

[maidstone_hoop]

Bloody racist card getting used again because we want immigration to be controlled. Absolute joke and again problaly coming for the nutty lefties who live in absolute lala land.

Its a wonder how other countries outside of the union survive isn't it? America, Canada, Norway and Australia are all massively up s**t creek aren't they?

Britain should be a leader in Europe your 100% right but we are not because we are not respected and it is ruled by the Germans. They whole of Europe are very jealous about our capabilities and they know if we leave we will go from strength to strength and they have no say in what we do. Right now we are a puppet to them and we are used for a financial clout.
Of course they don't want to lose our financial contribution or security detail. Thats all of benefit to them.

It's all very one sided when it comes to Europe and actually as Brits yes we share western values but we are much more in tune with the American, Canadians, Australians ect than the french, Germans or Belgians.

All this scare mongering was used in Norway when they voted to leave and they got told they wouldn't get ant trade deals ect now look at Norway and see how they are doing finically or with their immigration problems.

The stupid thing is that Britain can still stand with Europe and decide to help where it feels necessary but we don't need to be governed it.

Europe is absolutely f***ed and we might just get away with being ok if we get out now. It's a bloody death wish to be in Europe and especially if they let the Turks in.

[Jimmy Floyd Rabbit]

What is racist about wanting to control our own immigration policy?

The usual drivel I'd expect from the nutty left gaza.