Europe. In or out?

[SM3 Ranger]

Yea good point. Bookies rarely wrong though, so that has me thinking.

The conspiracy theorist in me thinks the result is already decided despite what we vote.
Europe cannot afford to have us leave so I am afraid we will be staying in.(not what I will be voting for though)

[Hubble]

Many of you - like me - are very concerned about the huge trade deal being negotiated in secret, known as TTIP. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.

The TTIP deal would - among other things - give corporations the right to sue governments if they passed measures the corporations didn't like. It would, in effect, open the door to the completely undemocratic rule of private companies over and above the rights of ordinary citizens. In my opinion, and that of many others, this is a nightmare scenario - far worse than anything the EU has done or will do. If we think some parts of the EU are undemocratic, the TTIP is this on steroids.

So a big questions is, is TTIP more likely to come about if we remain in the EU or if we leave?

From my understanding, it has more chance of going through if we chose to leave the EU. The reason for this is that almost the entire Tory party is pro TTIP. And the biggest cheerleader of all for TTIP is Boris Johnson. In the event of a Brexit, it's highly likely that Johnson will - at least - have far more influence, and possibly he will become PM. For me, this is a very scary scenario. Far from being the people's champion, returning Britain to a haven of democracy (as many seem to think), we would go in the opposite direction.

Now Cameron is also a TTIP fan. So what's to say TTIP wouldn't go through if we chose to remain? The difference in this scenario is that there is far more scepticism in the EU in relation to TTIP that there is in the Tory government.

Here's what Corbyn has just said about this - worth reading whether you like him or not, as it has relevance:

"Many thousands of people have written to me, with their concerns about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (or T-TIP) the deal being negotiated, largely in secret, between the US and the EU.

Many people are concerned rightly, that it could open up public services to further privatisation – and make privatisation effectively irreversible. Others are concerned about any potential watering down of consumer rights, food safety standards, rights at work or environmental protections and the facility for corporations to sue national governments if regulations impinged on their profits.

I share those concerns.

A few weeks ago the French President, Francois Hollande, said he would veto the deal as it stands and to become law any deal would have to be ratified by each member state. So today we give this pledge, as it stands, we too would reject TTIP – and veto it in government.

And there is a challenge to the prime minister, if it’s not good enough for France; it’s not good enough for Britain either.

David Cameron, make clear now that if Britain votes to remain this month you will block any TTIP trade treaty that threatens our public services, our consumer and employment rights and that hands over power to giant corporations to override democratically elected governments."

So, let's see if Cameron responds or not. Either way, this is a vital issue we all need to be aware of.

[Hubble]

Oh, and if you don't know much about TTIP yet, this is a good, quick guide:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

[jmelanie]

Oh, and if you don't know much about TTIP yet, this is a good, quick guide:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...u-9779688.html

Maybe I live on a different planate but TTIP looks like a good idea and if there is more chance of it going through if we vote Brexit, this gives me another reason to vote to leave. The paragraph on food is especially interesting. We live half the year in the U.S. and prefer the food we buy there. It is cheaper and fresher. Vegetables and fruit are generally fresh and not in packages and have a different flavour. Although labour laws have changed in this country, they are still in need of change. How can a union who has about 30% of its members vote for a strike hold the whole country to ransom. Of course France is against it because there labour laws are even worse than ours which is why they have over 10% unemployment (50% amongst youth). Of course companies get around these laws by employing people on a daily contract. We have a friend whose son works for FNAC and everyday he gets a new contract. He has no health insurance, no pension and has to pay his own taxes. He would probably be better off if he claimed unemployment but he doesn't want to do this.

[Hubble]

Maybe I live on a different planate but TTIP looks like a good idea and if there is more chance of it going through if we vote Brexit, this gives me another reason to vote to leave. The paragraph on food is especially interesting. We live half the year in the U.S. and prefer the food we buy there. It is cheaper and fresher. Vegetables and fruit are generally fresh and not in packages and have a different flavour. Although labour laws have changed in this country, they are still in need of change. How can a union who has about 30% of its members vote for a strike hold the whole country to ransom. Of course France is against it because there labour laws are even worse than ours which is why they have over 10% unemployment (50% amongst youth). Of course companies get around these laws by employing people on a daily contract. We have a friend whose son works for FNAC and everyday he gets a new contract. He has no health insurance, no pension and has to pay his own taxes. He would probably be better off if he claimed unemployment but he doesn't want to do this.

Wow. You read through that article and you actually think TTIP is a good idea? Wow.

From my personal experience, I completely disagree with you about food in the US. I have visited the US many times, and IMHO, the food, compared to here, is bloody awful. Anaemic vegetables, bizarrely perfect looking fruit, most of it tasteless compared to our own fresh food and most of it covered it god knows what insecticides. Plus, as you have read, no GMO labelling. Wow, Sorry, I'd MUCH rather stick with the way we have it here.

In terms of labour laws and our basic democratic rights, I also compeltely disagree. There's a line between cutting regulation and making everyone's job at the mercy of the whim of the market. What you're cheering for is the ability for massive corporations to do what they like, to ignore what the electorate of a country vote for, and to run roughshod over a country's laws, just because it threatens their profits. If you want TTIP, you'd be voting for the destruction of democracy.

Mussolini described fascism as the the marriage of corporation and state. That is exactly what TTIP is. You'd be voting for fascism, pure and simple. As long as we agree with that, we know where each other stands in this debate. It's not surprising to me, therefore, that Boris Johnson agrees with you.

[bakes8]

Wow. You read through that article and you actually think TTIP is a good idea? Wow.

From my personal experience, I completely disagree with you about food in the US. I have visited the US many times, and IMHO, the food, compared to here, is bloody awful. Anaemic vegetables, bizarrely perfect looking fruit, most of it tasteless compared to our own fresh food and most of it covered it god knows what insecticides. Plus, as you have read, no GMO labelling. Wow, Sorry, I'd MUCH rather stick with the way we have it here.

In terms of labour laws and our basic democratic rights, I also compeltely disagree. There's a line between cutting regulation and making everyone's job at the mercy of the whim of the market. What you're cheering for is the ability for massive corporations to do what they like, to ignore what the electorate of a country vote for, and to run roughshod over a country's laws, just because it threatens their profits. If you want TTIP, you'd be voting for the destruction of democracy.

Mussolini described fascism as the the marriage of corporation and state. That is exactly what TTIP is. You'd be voting for fascism, pure and simple. As long as we agree with that, we know where each other stands in this debate. It's not surprising to me, therefore, that Boris Johnson agrees with you.

Erm, isn't the TTIP and agreement between The EU and the US?

And if were not in the EU?

[Snaxo]

Did someone compare our position to Norway?

They have an $819 billion 'rainy day' wealth fund, so it's no surprise they are not a full EU member. Their circumstances are radically different to ours (and virtually anyone's).

[MattyRangers]

Oh, and if you don't know much about TTIP yet, this is a good, quick guide:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...u-9779688.html

Interesting read that Hubs, cheers.

[Hubble]

Erm, isn't the TTIP and agreement between The EU and the US?

And if were not in the EU?

That's my point. Our current government is overwhelmingly pro-TTIP, especially Boris Johnson. What this means is that if we were to Brexit, the likelihood of the UK signing up to its own version of TTIP is high. Johnson has clearly stated that he wants to implement it. Currently it is being stalled by the EU.

[dave58]

Maybe I live on a different planate but TTIP looks like a good idea and if there is more chance of it going through if we vote Brexit, this gives me another reason to vote to leave. The paragraph on food is especially interesting. We live half the year in the U.S. and prefer the food we buy there. It is cheaper and fresher. Vegetables and fruit are generally fresh and not in packages and have a different flavour. Although labour laws have changed in this country, they are still in need of change. How can a union who has about 30% of its members vote for a strike hold the whole country to ransom. Of course France is against it because there labour laws are even worse than ours which is why they have over 10% unemployment (50% amongst youth). Of course companies get around these laws by employing people on a daily contract. We have a friend whose son works for FNAC and everyday he gets a new contract. He has no health insurance, no pension and has to pay his own taxes. He would probably be better off if he claimed unemployment but he doesn't want to do this.

Your point regarding unions and voting ,its called democracy the same way a government that less gets than 30% of the vote is allowed to run the country a previous mayor and current mayor never exceeded 40% of the vote yet still get to be mayor people really need to get off their a**e and vote so I'm afraid that's it, we have to abide by the majority

[Hubble]

And just to be clear on this - if Johnson and the Brexit campaigners were saying, with absolute clarity, they would NOT implement TTIP (or anything like it), because they don't believe in its core ethos, then I'd vote leave. Plain and simple. But in fact the majority of Brexit campaigners, far from rejecting TTIP and its values, are actually massive supporters of what it stands for. The movie posted earlier in this thread - Brexit the Movie - proves this unequivocally.

Here's someone else on this topic and why Brexit would not stop TTIP: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6853876.html

[Hove Ranger]

TTIP a good idea

Autonomy seems to be a core focus of most people in this debate and TTIP completely removes that

[vespa]

Although labour laws have changed in this country, they are still in need of change. How can a union who has about 30% of its members vote for a strike hold the whole country to ransom.

When has the whole country been held to ransom by a union that has only had 30% of its members vote for strike action ? .

[Olly]

Why would the public here stand idly by and allow it? EU protests may stop it over there.

[jmelanie]

When has the whole country been held to ransom by a union that has only had 30% of its members vote for strike action ? .

Several train and tube strikes for a start.