Europe. In or out?

[Ginger Ninja]

Sweet Jesus.
I actually don't want to live on this planet any more. No wonder aliens won't come and visit.

[Timmy the Doc]

My reasons for wanting to leave the EU are purely personal and sentimental. My parents spent nearly 6 years of their lives fighting for the U.K. to remain a free country (my father was bombed out of Coventry). In the first referendum they actually voted for the common market believing it would simply be a trade agreement (I believe many of us did the same). Then they watched as various governments changed the rules so that gradually it became closer and closer to a Federal Europe with major decisions being taken out of our hands. They were very upset that they had no say in these decisions. It is now too late for them to be have any influence. So I will be voting no (as will most of my family) in their honour.

I was actually hoping to be able to make a decision for myself based on discussions during the campaign, but unfortunately this hasn't happened.

Sorry, but the only free country is North Korea.

[amusant]

Reasons for staying in:

- If you go back to the 70s, the reason that the UK so badly wanted in was that we were 'the sick man of Europe' poorer even than Italy. Joining worked, the economy grew, exports particularly to Germany took off and the UK prospered....and it's hardly surprising when you have a 'home' market of 500m to sell to rather than 60M

- Sovereignty is very relative. Any trade deal you sign limits sovereignty because the other side expects you to give something in return for free access to their markets. The EU has muscle with 500M consumers, we'll have a lot less and so inevitably get worse deals and we'll lose sovereignty in other ways.

- There is a myth that we're perpetually outvoted in Europe - it's not remotely true - since 1999 we've voted yes to EU legislation 2,474 times, no 57 times and abstained 70 times, so we got our way 95% of the time! Doesn't sound like being ruled from Brussels!

- There's a lot of fuss about immigration, but that fails to point out that half of our immigration comes from outside of the EU and that most of those immigrants are going to be needed anyway to fill low paid jobs, staff our hospitals and schools etc. So overall immigration is very unlikely to fall much after a Brexit - they'll just come from different places!

- The most optimistic view of Brexit is that it would involve years of negotiation with both the EU and other countries to get trade deals - the deal with the EU might be the hardest to get - there are anti-EU movements in many EU countries - the last thing they'll want to do is give the UK a good deal or that will encourage others to leave. Markets hate uncertainty so it's highly likely in this period that the stock market will fall - this affects all of our pensions

- So if you want to be poorer, have smaller pension pots, see about the same level of immigration and see sovereignty diluted by successive trade deals vote Leave!

[amusant]

The line that it will get control on our boarders has become an irrelevant one, because they're all bloody already over here.

We don't know how it will effect businesses in this country but i'd imagine it won't have much of an effect.

The fact we do know we will save 350m and soon to be 400m has to swing it for me. That money can be used to help/aid people living and contributing to this country.

Ahem - you're listening to Boris' lies on that £350M, the facts are:

- £350M per week is calculated by our contribution of £19B pa divided by 52
- However it neglects to count our budget rebate negotiated by Thatcher which reduces our annual contribution by over 25% to £14B reducing the weekly number to £280M
- Then of course we get money back paid to farmers and for regional regeneration projects such as the Southern Gateway improvements in Nottingham, so we're down to £140M

OK that sounds like a lot of money, but the UK's total spending in 2015 was £734 Billion, so the net spend on the EU is less than 1% of that ...it won't be life changing if we get it back!

[gaza09]

Sorry, but the only free country is North Korea.

What? North Korea a free country?
Give your head a wobble

[gaza09]

Reasons for staying in:

- If you go back to the 70s, the reason that the UK so badly wanted in was that we were 'the sick man of Europe' poorer even than Italy. Joining worked, the economy grew, exports particularly to Germany took off and the UK prospered....and it's hardly surprising when you have a 'home' market of 500m to sell to rather than 60M

- Sovereignty is very relative. Any trade deal you sign limits sovereignty because the other side expects you to give something in return for free access to their markets. The EU has muscle with 500M consumers, we'll have a lot less and so inevitably get worse deals and we'll lose sovereignty in other ways.

- There is a myth that we're perpetually outvoted in Europe - it's not remotely true - since 1999 we've voted yes to EU legislation 2,474 times, no 57 times and abstained 70 times, so we got our way 95% of the time! Doesn't sound like being ruled from Brussels!

- There's a lot of fuss about immigration, but that fails to point out that half of our immigration comes from outside of the EU and that most of those immigrants are going to be needed anyway to fill low paid jobs, staff our hospitals and schools etc. So overall immigration is very unlikely to fall much after a Brexit - they'll just come from different places!

- The most optimistic view of Brexit is that it would involve years of negotiation with both the EU and other countries to get trade deals - the deal with the EU might be the hardest to get - there are anti-EU movements in many EU countries - the last thing they'll want to do is give the UK a good deal or that will encourage others to leave. Markets hate uncertainty so it's highly likely in this period that the stock market will fall - this affects all of our pensions

- So if you want to be poorer, have smaller pension pots, see about the same level of immigration and see sovereignty diluted by successive trade deals vote Leave!

Besides from project fear, what are the positives to stay in the EU?

[Timmy the Doc]

What? North Korea a free country?
Give your head a wobble

North Korea is the only country who can make decisions independently.

[Timmy the Doc]

EU has expanded too fast and it's immigration policy should be more strict. It is best to influence those inside the EU not outside.

[alihors]

Out

[Hoop-du-Jour]

Reasons for staying in:

- If you go back to the 70s, the reason that the UK so badly wanted in was that we were 'the sick man of Europe' poorer even than Italy. Joining worked, the economy grew, exports particularly to Germany took off and the UK prospered....and it's hardly surprising when you have a 'home' market of 500m to sell to rather than 60M

- Sovereignty is very relative. Any trade deal you sign limits sovereignty because the other side expects you to give something in return for free access to their markets. The EU has muscle with 500M consumers, we'll have a lot less and so inevitably get worse deals and we'll lose sovereignty in other ways.

- There is a myth that we're perpetually outvoted in Europe - it's not remotely true - since 1999 we've voted yes to EU legislation 2,474 times, no 57 times and abstained 70 times, so we got our way 95% of the time! Doesn't sound like being ruled from Brussels!

- There's a lot of fuss about immigration, but that fails to point out that half of our immigration comes from outside of the EU and that most of those immigrants are going to be needed anyway to fill low paid jobs, staff our hospitals and schools etc. So overall immigration is very unlikely to fall much after a Brexit - they'll just come from different places!

- The most optimistic view of Brexit is that it would involve years of negotiation with both the EU and other countries to get trade deals - the deal with the EU might be the hardest to get - there are anti-EU movements in many EU countries - the last thing they'll want to do is give the UK a good deal or that will encourage others to leave. Markets hate uncertainty so it's highly likely in this period that the stock market will fall - this affects all of our pensions

- So if you want to be poorer, have smaller pension pots, see about the same level of immigration and see sovereignty diluted by successive trade deals vote Leave!

-If you go back to the 70s, we voted to join a Common Market to make trading easier and more beneficial for all members. That worked, the Federal State that we are lumbering toward, which dictates many of our unwanted laws, is not what was voted for in the 70s.

-You DO NOT sign over Sovereignty making trade deals. Trade deals involve tarriffs and if I'm not mistaken there are no free trade deals in the EU, so why would we expect to get one? The EU may have 500m consumers, but there's a lot more than that outside the EU. We've been sucking up to China for years and various other countries, we'll not want for customers and consumers in the EU and they'll still get their share of our products as the WTO rules ensure that no country shall be discriminated against, in or out. What's this bit at the end you put? "and we'll lose sovereignty in other ways." Absolute Project Fear statement with utterly no foundation in regard to anything you've said.

-Er, how did we get our way 95% of the time? By voting yes to every loony "Water doesn't hydrate you so you can't say it does on the bottle or we'll crush you with fines" type of law? I don't get this one, you trot out how many votes we've made, how we voted, but not how we got our way 95% of the time.

-Less immigration will reduce the burdens placed on schools and hospitals, less children to educate, less sick people. There are plenty of unemployed to fill "lower paid jobs" and if there isn't, wages will have to rise to a worthwhile level thus making the economy richer.

-Refer to my earlier statement re the WTO, an organisation you Remanians seem not to have heard of, for gainig trade deals in the EU. We already have trade deals around the globe, if we require more, we'll get them, we're not incapable of this being out of the EU. The Stock Market will indeed fall, but not for long because not much will change in the short term. In the longer term, when deals are struck on trade it will be as bouyant as it usually is.

- The points you make in the entire last statement "poorer, smaller pensions, same level of immigration, Sovereignty diluted by trade deals" all claptrap and general fearmongering with no basis in fact. No can say any of that will come about if we leave the EU. You may as well say that the moon will explode if we vote leave because the huge sigh of relief from the outers will knock the moon into an unstable orbit causing immense gravitational fluctuations. Get off to Betfair and see what odds they'll give you on that!

[gaza09]

EU has expanded too fast and it's immigration policy should be more strict. It is best to influence those inside the EU not outside.

We were threatening to leave and Dave couldn't get any meaningful reforms, if we vote to stay why would it be any different to the last 40 years?

[Olly]

Staying in EVENTUALLY means one super state with ALL control from Brussels? Westminster would be the equivalent of a local council? It's not the now we're voting for, it's where we're ending up.

[dogsrrs]

Reasons for staying in:

- If you go back to the 70s, the reason that the UK so badly wanted in was that we were 'the sick man of Europe' poorer even than Italy. Joining worked, the economy grew, exports particularly to Germany took off and the UK prospered....and it's hardly surprising when you have a 'home' market of 500m to sell to rather than 60M

- Sovereignty is very relative. Any trade deal you sign limits sovereignty because the other side expects you to give something in return for free access to their markets. The EU has muscle with 500M consumers, we'll have a lot less and so inevitably get worse deals and we'll lose sovereignty in other ways.

- There is a myth that we're perpetually outvoted in Europe - it's not remotely true - since 1999 we've voted yes to EU legislation 2,474 times, no 57 times and abstained 70 times, so we got our way 95% of the time! Doesn't sound like being ruled from Brussels!

- There's a lot of fuss about immigration, but that fails to point out that half of our immigration comes from outside of the EU and that most of those immigrants are going to be needed anyway to fill low paid jobs, staff our hospitals and schools etc. So overall immigration is very unlikely to fall much after a Brexit - they'll just come from different places!

- The most optimistic view of Brexit is that it would involve years of negotiation with both the EU and other countries to get trade deals - the deal with the EU might be the hardest to get - there are anti-EU movements in many EU countries - the last thing they'll want to do is give the UK a good deal or that will encourage others to leave. Markets hate uncertainty so it's highly likely in this period that the stock market will fall - this affects all of our pensions

- So if you want to be poorer, have smaller pension pots, see about the same level of immigration and see sovereignty diluted by successive trade deals vote Leave!

Forget that go back to the 70s line Buddy that was the last time we had a labour government so you can rule out the EU having anything to do what's happened since

[vespa]

Forget that go back to the 70s line Buddy that was the last time we had a labour government so you rule the the EU having anything to do what's happened since

What ?????? ( did anyone understand what that meant ? )

[vespa]

My heart says leave ,with the impending inclusion of Turkey into Europe ,and the fact that we need to distance ourselves from the Islamificaction of Europe . But leaving us with Britain under sole control of the Bullingdon boys Tory government ,scares the s hit out of me , the government are attacking the working class at every opportunity and without anyone to keep them in check its only going to get worse .
I dont know which way to go , at the moment ....