Big difference between Premier and Champions League

[sirpiechucker]

Every year three teams are promoted to the Premiership. Not always th best teams or the one playing good football but the rules are there that the top two plus a play off team will be promoted. When a team and in particular your team does it it's a great achievement. However there is a major difference between promotion and finishing inside the top four of the Premiership.

Over the last couple of seasons we've effectively achieved less than Norwich. In four years we had to achieve one promotion which is a lot more simple than achieving two. Clubs like Blackpool and Burnley achieved promotion quicker and with arguably a lot less resources. Yes the argument will be but they didn't have a £10m debt hanging over them but who is to blame for that? No other team than ourselves. We put ourselves in that position and any buyer knew what the situation was when they bought into it. We have therefore started from exactly the same position as other recently promoted teams. We've seen with good management that it doesn't take four years to achieve promotion from near the depths of relegation. But promotion is very different from Champions League qualification.

I personally didn't buy into it but the owners talked it up and raised expectations. How many sat at Stamford Bridge giving it the big 'we're richer than you'? How many saw the initial rise in ST prices as an indication of quality signings coming to W12? How many sponsors heard or read things coming out of Loftus Road and bought into the idea of us being the next Chelsea? I'm sure one or two did. Whether it was said in jest or actually meant it raised expectations. Mine, yours, everyones. We all knew that meant promotion had to be secured and then the building starts.

As I said the two things are different one could be achieved by three teams this season including newly promoted Brighton, Southampton or Peterborough but for any of them to achieve CL qualification that takes a lot lot more. How many teams have come close to promotion one season followed by top 4 the next? On paper the likes of Reading and Wigan looked close a few years ago but in truth they were closer to relegation than the top 4.

I'm not denying that yesterdays statement should be seen as a positive one and that keeping Taraabt could mean the difference between survival and relegation but to claim their four year objective has been achieved is a lie. We all know to get CL qualification they would have to have been promoted in year two and spent massively for two years. They didn't and now want us to again be thankful for the lies they've spun and continue to spin. They've never attempted to get us anywhere near CL. I'm happy and excited to be playing Premiership football with Taraabt in the side but to try and convince intelligent people that promotion after 4 years was their key objective is ridiculous. All they have done is highlighted to Neil and his coaching team that IRS their neck on the line if things are looking rocky. Neil has no right of reply as if he does then that to has been addressed as to what would happen.

I'm thankful for Premiership football, I'm thankful to have Warnock as coach and I'm thankful that Taraabt is a part of our team but I and we shouldn't be treated like fools. If they had never mentioned CL then a lot more people would have a lot more respect for them as they wouldn't feel that they've been taken for a ride both financially and emotionally.

[sirpiechucker]

Apologises for the spelling mistakes...bloody iPhone!

[W12_Ranger]

Every year three teams are promoted to the Premiership. Not always th best teams or the one playing good football but the rules are there that the top two plus a play off team will be promoted. When a team and in particular your team does it it's a great achievement. However there is a major difference between promotion and finishing inside the top four of the Premiership.

Over the last couple of seasons we've effectively achieved less than Norwich. In four years we had to achieve one promotion which is a lot more simple than achieving two. Clubs like Blackpool and Burnley achieved promotion quicker and with arguably a lot less resources. Yes the argument will be but they didn't have a £10m debt hanging over them but who is to blame for that? No other team than ourselves. We put ourselves in that position and any buyer knew what the situation was when they bought into it. We have therefore started from exactly the same position as other recently promoted teams. We've seen with good management that it doesn't take four years to achieve promotion from near the depths of relegation. But promotion is very different from Champions League qualification.

I personally didn't buy into it but the owners talked it up and raised expectations. How many sat at Stamford Bridge giving it the big 'we're richer than you'? How many saw the initial rise in ST prices as an indication of quality signings coming to W12? How many sponsors heard or read things coming out of Loftus Road and bought into the idea of us being the next Chelsea? I'm sure one or two did. Whether it was said in jest or actually meant it raised expectations. Mine, yours, everyones. We all knew that meant promotion had to be secured and then the building starts.

As I said the two things are different one could be achieved by three teams this season including newly promoted Brighton, Southampton or Peterborough but for any of them to achieve CL qualification that takes a lot lot more. How many teams have come close to promotion one season followed by top 4 the next? On paper the likes of Reading and Wigan looked close a few years ago but in truth they were closer to relegation than the top 4.

I'm not denying that yesterdays statement should be seen as a positive one and that keeping Taraabt could mean the difference between survival and relegation but to claim their four year objective has been achieved is a lie. We all know to get CL qualification they would have to have been promoted in year two and spent massively for two years. They didn't and now want us to again be thankful for the lies they've spun and continue to spin. They've never attempted to get us anywhere near CL. I'm happy and excited to be playing Premiership football with Taraabt in the side but to try and convince intelligent people that promotion after 4 years was their key objective is ridiculous. All they have done is highlighted to Neil and his coaching team that IRS their neck on the line if things are looking rocky. Neil has no right of reply as if he does then that to has been addressed as to what would happen.

I'm thankful for Premiership football, I'm thankful to have Warnock as coach and I'm thankful that Taraabt is a part of our team but I and we shouldn't be treated like fools. If they had never mentioned CL then a lot more people would have a lot more respect for them as they wouldn't feel that they've been taken for a ride both financially and emotionally.

Great post

[SuperHoopNik]

Apologises for the spelling mistakes...bloody iPhone!

Great post. You typed all of that out on your iPhone? that must of been difficult

[bhujio]

Great post Sirpie, please take note rangersforevereastcote and take the blinkers from your eyes so you can see them for what they are doing to our club.
I will still forgive them if they Let NW have some finances form Prem money.

[rangerforevereastcote]

im not sure what your bringing me into this for, you got something to say then say it. thankfully im able to read and understand this post and for what its worth i think its a very good one, but everything he writes is balanced and well thought out

i completely agree the biggest mistake was raising peoples expectations, under promise over deliver and people are always happpier, if they had merely stated they were trying to get club on sound footing with the intention of getting to pl and trying to survive then i think the tone would be a lot less hostile.
what i would throw at everyone who believed their comments ref the cl in 4 years, did you really believe it? cos i certainly never i laughed and thought at the time yeah right, but they are not alone about making silly promises , what did those boys at blackburn say about ambitions ? where are they now? what did kraft say when they bought cadburys? where are they now? their boasts unfortunately are common practice done in order to get people on board, and lets be honest whilst i didnt believe their statements i still harboured a little thought of what it would be like to go to real madrid in champions league entertining milan etc, now isnt that what we all really love to dream about ? isnt that what most fans harbour whenever a season starts ? its these ambitions and dreams that make you go footballl its why we get so depressed when things go so wrong and feel great when things go right. so bhujo before you tell me what i should do maybe you should read what i say accross ost of my posts where yes im positive but you know what ill enjoy it before the reality kicks in next season and all of a sudden i can be as miserable as you

[sirpiechucker]

As I said rangerforevereastcote, personally i didn't believe it but others with their banners at Stamford Bridge obviously did. How many people do you know who don't support QPR mentioned it at the time. How many still say when are your boys going to spend I thought you were going to be playing CL football? I still hear it. I still have people at work mention it to me.

As you rightly said they raised expectations above what they needed to but I believe if they had said Premiership in four years it wouldn't haven't created the same buzz. If you said to a Brighton fan in four years time you'll win promotion no doubt they'd asked you why is it going to take that long? Especially if they got bought out by Billionaire owners.

They said it because it suited them for one reason or another. They either said it to create that buzz that makes people spend money be it sponsors or fans. Or they said it because they actually believed it but naively they thought they could do it without really breaking the bank. How much have Sunderland, Everton, Aston Villa etc spent on transfer fees and how close have they actually ever came to breaking into the top four. Liverpool have spent a lot of money and may get back in there but at who's expense? Either it was a lie or proof they know very little about football.

[rangerforevereastcote]

As I said rangerforevereastcote, personally i didn't believe it but others with their banners at Stamford Bridge obviously did. How many people do you know who don't support QPR mentioned it at the time. How many still say when are your boys going to spend I thought you were going to be playing CL football? I still hear it. I still have people at work mention it to me.

As you rightly said they raised expectations above what they needed to but I believe if they had said Premiership in four years it wouldn't haven't created the same buzz. If you said to a Brighton fan in four years time you'll win promotion no doubt they'd asked you why is it going to take that long? Especially if they got bought out by Billionaire owners.

They said it because it suited them for one reason or another. They either said it to create that buzz that makes people spend money be it sponsors or fans. Or they said it because they actually believed it but naively they thought they could do it without really breaking the bank. How much have Sunderland, Everton, Aston Villa etc spent on transfer fees and how close have they actually ever came to breaking into the top four. Liverpool have spent a lot of money and may get back in there but at who's expense? Either it was a lie or proof they know very little about football.

i think youve nailed it again in your comments,
firstly i didnt believe it as i said but i do get everyone still saying to me that were a r ich club, when we going to spend etc,
i think your point about sponsers etc a very valid one, we have some big name sponsers on board (ok i know were looking for new ones but we have had big ones) probably bigger names then anyone in the championship have had previously, they obv done it to get people to buy in and spend , they bought in to the richest club in the world so you cld say they played the game, i cant believe our fans really believed it, one of the most embaressing things i remember abt it at chelsea was that girl in a deer hat with that hand written sign saying " were richer then you" shown in every paper


but i also do belive they have been shocked by the level of expenditure so far , i can assure you the money we spend on wages way beyond our means and shown in the 13 mill a year losses (ill pm you how i know cant post it), i think they have made mistakes and again cant beilive how much it costs to correct them, i think they have demonstrated a complete niavaty in what it takes to run a club and perhaps perversely are showing restraint possibly at the one time when they maybe shouldnt, though they could say they are being prudent, as the case of someone like birmingham west ham have shown throwing money and fees at players not a sure fire way of retaining pl football, they prob also see the mess birmingham and westham now in in chasing the dream.
so maybe thats why theres talk of takeover cos they realise they do not want to commit the level of finance required , which being honest with you i understand , id rather go down with a tem who want to be at qpr then a team of mercenarys like at westham

[davman]

We are always going to have to spend 'beyond our means' if we are to play in the big boys' playground as we are a mid to lower Championship team on attendances and fan base. What galls me is that THEY (the owners) are choosing to push the boat out by paying out more than comes in year on year, not me. To my mind, instead of continually racking up the debt, THEY should pay it off (not me), which, surely is the true meaning of 'investment', but no, they just add to the debt. Note, that's the CLUB'S debt not their own.

But no, THEY over spend year on year and yet, because of this, the club (or any future investor) owes them the money; how the hell does that work?

If they want to carry on sanctioning overspend (by paying high wages, by allowing Paladini to accrue fines or interest free loans or by sacking one 'coach' / manager after another, etc.), why should the CLUB cover them? If they have truly 'spent' the money they (and their apologists) keep claiming, then WHY is the debt increasing????

[stainrodisalegend]

Good post. But think what you have to realise about the Briatorie project is that the entire process was a marketing exercise. Just like it was for Flavio at Beneton. By talking up the brand, the idea was to get big sponsorship, crowds through the turnstiles and tv and merchandise revenue and this was meant to provide most of the money to buy players.

If he had have played it realistic and straight as you suggest then none of the other stuff would have happened. My take is he thought that a football club could be turned round entirely as a marketing exercise with others effectively paying for the bigger budgets thanks to Briatore's re-branding exercise.

Unfortnately for him it didn't work because a) he sacked so many managers he ended up spending more money than he needed to, with mediocre player upon mediocre player bought by successive managers and b) as one of you pointed out, he underestimated just what a massive investment it was to run a football club. Its no coincidence that hardly any of them make a profit. Not all the owners off all the clubs can be stupid.

So yes he has created massive false expectation. But for Briatore there was no alternative - he certainly wasn't going to fund it himself.

[rangerforevereastcote]

apart from bhujios post one of the more sensible debates/discussions on here

[rangerforevereastcote]

Good post. But think what you have to realise about the Briatorie project is that the entire process was a marketing exercise. Just like it was for Flavio at Beneton. By talking up the brand, the idea was to get big sponsorship, crowds through the turnstiles and tv and merchandise revenue and this was meant to provide most of the money to buy players.

If he had have played it realistic and straight as you suggest then none of the other stuff would have happened. My take is he thought that a football club could be turned round entirely as a marketing exercise with others effectively paying for the bigger budgets thanks to Briatore's re-branding exercise.

Unfortnately for him it didn't work because a) he sacked so many managers he ended up spending more money than he needed to, with mediocre player upon mediocre player bought by successive managers and b) as one of you pointed out, he underestimated just what a massive investment it was to run a football club. Its no coincidence that hardly any of them make a profit. Not all the owners off all the clubs can be stupid.

So yes he has created massive false expectation. But for Briatore there was no alternative - he certainly wasn't going to fund it himself.

again agree, with these comments , no vision no celebrity circus (remember how many cameras at ground ant tv coverage we got around then) no sposership = no money = defo no prem

[sirpiechucker]

One of Briatore's earliest quotes in charge was to announce that he was a winner and that he would employ the best people to protect his asset and to this day I don't understand why he employed managers with failed 'projects' on their CV or ones with no experience whatsoever. It totally when against everything he was saying.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I've mentioned this before but why when they were looking for a manager to replace John Gregory did they not look at someone like Warnock? He was out of work and was just weeks away from going to Palace. He was obviously in a position where he was happy to work 'down south' but also happy to return to work.

[rangerforevereastcote]

Don't want start the debate on here about gp again, but would lay the blame for the appts at his door , was he not responsible for advising the board t this time? Question mark there cos can't remember but am sure he was

[stainrodisalegend]

Don't want start the debate on here about gp again, but would lay the blame for the appts at his door , was he not responsible for advising the board t this time? Question mark there cos can't remember but am sure he was

Think he has to take some of the blame as he seemed to want compliant managers that would leave him in charge of transfers. It was only in total desperation that the club went to Warno which, as quite rightly stated, we should have signed in the first place. That said Paladini - relatively speaking - was probably a voice of sanity protecting various managers from the madness of Briatore. I'm genuinely puzzled how Briatore could have been successful in other areas of his life because certainly with his behaviour towards QPR he seems very close to being certifiably insane, and its odd that someone as shrewd as Ecclestone doesn't see it.