Europe. In or out?

[Itsonlyagame]

I keep reading it's a nothing vote as remaining is a dead cert and it's 4-1 that we will leave.

We"ll almost certainly stay, but don't lose hope !

[stainrodisalegend]

saw this in the papers this morning:

1. NORWAY
Non-EU Norway is the most prosperous country in the world for the SEVENTH year running.
2. SWITZERLAND
Switzerland came in second place for the third year in a row,thanks to a strong economy and great governance.
3. DENMARK
Danes boast good governance and exemplary education,although they're let down by a poor health score.
4. NEW ZEALAND
The most prosperous non-European nation,New Zealand performed so well thanks to its impressive social cohesion.

Not Spin but FACT !!
Why Do we need the EU and all its red tape ? Wake up and smell the coffee and stop believing all the EU hype,there is life without the "Club"

Norway is not in the EU but is part of the single market. In return for this privilege they have to pay more into it than we do, and have to abide by every bit of red tape without having any say in the drawing up of those rules. Shania confirmed on here the other day Norwegians don't think they have a great deal.

Denmark is in the EU!

New Zealand - Britain's GDP is higher.

[stainrodisalegend]

But like us Denmark is not in the Euro. My concern is that if we vote to stay in, we will be forced to join the Euro.

We have a veto. More anti-EU scaremongering. You might as well say you fear the EU will take away our children and rape our women...

[stainrodisalegend]

When you say we live in a global economy and goods can be had elsewhere more cheaply, the child labour sweat shops of India spring to mind.
As for the point about wave upon wave of immigrants driving up the previous wave of immigrants, I wouldn't shout that out too loudly, some people might see that as an own goal by someone whose trying to sell the remain idea.

Not really mate. As I keep saying leaving the EU is not going to reduce immigration a) because half of it comes from outside the EU and b) because even Nigel Farage wd want to stay in the single market, and that requires free movement. But yes, I think both sides should be more honest about immigration - the outers claim they would reduce it and Cameron has consistently lied about how he was going to reduce it, even though he must have known he had no way of doing so.

[stainrodisalegend]

What will happen the day we quit Europe? No one knows and no one can tell us, which is the main reason we will end up staying in. Read a great analogy about this - its the equiv of being in a club and thinking its terrible and telling everyone to leave. Everyone leaves, then realises there is no where else to go and the club wont let us back in.

OK try explaining how leaving the EU will suddenly boost our trade with the rest of the world?

[stainrodisalegend]

As for the causes of the Great Depression, good luck with that one.
We could all go on and on about what will/might happen if we leave but of course, as we pretty much all agree, nobody really knows. Jmelanie hit the nail on the head by saying it will come down to personalities. Who we believe most. Even then, to a degree, it's a leap into the unknown. But personally I don't believe it's a leap into an abyss.
There will almost certainly be some short term teething issues but plenty of people far more knowledgable on the subject than you or I think it'll be worth it.
What is certainly worth bearing in mind is a vote to stay in the EU isn't necessarily a vote to keep the status quo. That too has its unknowns.It's evolving all the time and there are plenty within it who want it to evolve even more, far more than, as a nation, we want it to. It could quite easily unravel in the coming years. If that happens there will be plenty of other countries from within it scrambling to find trade deals with the other markets around the world. Why wait till then ? Let's take the bull by the horns and act now.

Hang on there mate, you say people way more knowledgeable than you or I know it will be worth it. The experts from just about every respected international organisation says we would be crazy to leave, and the vast majority of UK economist!

[jmelanie]

We have a veto. More anti-EU scaremongering. You might as well say you fear the EU will take away our children and rape our women...

Everybody keeps saying we can use our veto. This is possibly on some occasions. However this rarely happens. If Britain does use their veto then they usually change whatever agreement is being discussed so the veto is no longer relevant. I think Britain has only used the veto on a handful of times.

This is not scaremongering. If we vote to stay in the EU things will continue to change and as far as I know we (the population) will have little say in these changes. For example if the government of the day decides for whatever reason to further enlarge the EU, then we will have no say in this decision. The present ambition of the EU is a federal Europe (I don't believe this has changed). In order for this to happen a common currency for all members will be necessary. I do not recall us ever saying we would not join the Euro. I believe the reason for not joining was because Gordon Brown said that we did not fulfill the necessary requirements. When we did not join we were told our economy would suffer, banks would leave the U.K. (in fact more banks came to the capital), and it would in general a bad thing for the U.K. Sound familiar?

[Hove Ranger]

I keep reading it's a nothing vote as remaining is a dead cert and it's 4-1 that we will leave.

Now generally 3's across the board mate

[Itsonlyagame]

Hang on there mate, you say people way more knowledgeable than you or I know it will be worth it. The experts from just about every respected international organisation says we would be crazy to leave, and the vast majority of UK economist!

I said plenty of people think it will be worth it, I didn't say they know it will. Nobody does, including the economists.

[gaza09]

Norway is not in the EU but is part of the single market. In return for this privilege they have to pay more into it than we do, and have to abide by every bit of red tape without having any say in the drawing up of those rules. Shania confirmed on here the other day Norwegians don't think they have a great deal.

Denmark is in the EU!

New Zealand - Britain's GDP is higher.

They have such a bad deal and yet refuse to join the EU every time they're asked.

[stainrodisalegend]

Everybody keeps saying we can use our veto. This is possibly on some occasions. However this rarely happens. If Britain does use their veto then they usually change whatever agreement is being discussed so the veto is no longer relevant. I think Britain has only used the veto on a handful of times.

This is not scaremongering. If we vote to stay in the EU things will continue to change and as far as I know we (the population) will have little say in these changes. For example if the government of the day decides for whatever reason to further enlarge the EU, then we will have no say in this decision. The present ambition of the EU is a federal Europe (I don't believe this has changed). In order for this to happen a common currency for all members will be necessary. I do not recall us ever saying we would not join the Euro. I believe the reason for not joining was because Gordon Brown said that we did not fulfill the necessary requirements. When we did not join we were told our economy would suffer, banks would leave the U.K. (in fact more banks came to the capital), and it would in general a bad thing for the U.K. Sound familiar?

I'm sorry Melanie because over several years I have found you an intelligent poster but here you have clearly shown that on this particular subject you don't know what you are talking about. You clearly don't remember the discussions a generation ago when all of this was gone through. The vast majority of EU countries went for monetary union, we decided against it. If we want to go for it, we can; if we don't, we won't. No one - and I repeat no one - is suggesting we go for it. Even Nigel Farage is not claiming we are about to have monetary union or that this is anyway on the cards. Next scare story plse, pref not one out of the Daily Express this time...

[stainrodisalegend]

Everybody keeps saying we can use our veto. This is possibly on some occasions. However this rarely happens. If Britain does use their veto then they usually change whatever agreement is being discussed so the veto is no longer relevant. I think Britain has only used the veto on a handful of times.

This is not scaremongering. If we vote to stay in the EU things will continue to change and as far as I know we (the population) will have little say in these changes. For example if the government of the day decides for whatever reason to further enlarge the EU, then we will have no say in this decision. The present ambition of the EU is a federal Europe (I don't believe this has changed). In order for this to happen a common currency for all members will be necessary. I do not recall us ever saying we would not join the Euro. I believe the reason for not joining was because Gordon Brown said that we did not fulfill the necessary requirements. When we did not join we were told our economy would suffer, banks would leave the U.K. (in fact more banks came to the capital), and it would in general a bad thing for the U.K. Sound familiar?

You are now making an entirely different point. You are saying that if the British govt so decides, we might get closer entangled with Europe. Yes indeed. But a very big "if" there - and that is hardly wicked big bad wolf Europe imposing anything, that is if the British govt decides. Which we elected and which decides on everything from tax levels to education spending to going to war. So nothing new there...

[stainrodisalegend]

I said plenty of people think it will be worth it, I didn't say they know it will. Nobody does, including the economists.

But with the greatest respects mate it was an utterly pointless post (unlike several of your other ones) - if you are going to rely on expert opinion, the overwhelming majority of it is for us staying in. You are better off if you are a Brexiteer arguing the case of the crazy conspiracy - it is all a plot of "Europe", the banks, socialists/ liberals/ Cameron/ black people/ Romanians, who are apparently hell bent on destroying Britain. That's what gets the crowd going. Its b*llocks, but it seems to work with about 40/ 45 per cent of those people likely to vote.

[stainrodisalegend]

From the Daily Telegraph, not exactly a Euro-fanatical paper:

La Tribune reports that one camp in Paris is pushing for a harsh line to punish Britain – even to the point of denying the UK a Norwegian-style package in the European Economic Area, should it opt for that course – in order to ensure that Brexit fails so spectacularly that no other country dares to follow suit.

So much uncertainty. Maybe your job is really secure and you are really rich, but I hope you care about those who are maybe not so secure...

[lymehoop]

From the Daily Telegraph, not exactly a Euro-fanatical paper:

La Tribune reports that one camp in Paris is pushing for a harsh line to punish Britain – even to the point of denying the UK a Norwegian-style package in the European Economic Area, should it opt for that course – in order to ensure that Brexit fails so spectacularly that no other country dares to follow suit.

So much uncertainty. Maybe your job is really secure and you are really rich, but I hope you care about those who are maybe not so secure...

that pretty much sums up why we shouldn't be in this Union. Threats, scaremongering and doom and gloom awaits because we'd the temerity of contemplating leaving