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Thread: So are we fans of empires or not?

  1. #16


    Originally Posted by Hove Ranger
    For an empire (In the way we recognise the term) to thrive there has to be domination/exploitation. So it depends how that sits with you. It also has distinct military connotations. Comes from the Latin Imperium

    Also democracy isn't a legacy of European Empires
    It is in India and many African states Hovis....

  2. #17


    But the idea of democracy predates any european empire

  3. #18


    Originally Posted by Hove Ranger
    But the idea of democracy predates any european empire
    That wasn't my point mate, what I said was that the empires left that legacy.... which they did.

  4. #19

    Default The rise and fall of the latest iteration

    In this case the American Empire.

    One of the main roles of art is to be a reflection of society.

    Don Henley expressed the rise and fall of the North American empire in two allegorical classics, recorded 30 years apart.

    The first was called 'The Last Resort', depicting the rise:

    "The Last Resort"

    She came from Providence,
    the one in Rhode Island
    Where the old world shadows hang
    heavy in the air
    She packed her hopes and dreams
    like a refugee
    Just as her father came across the sea

    She heard about a place people were smilin'
    They spoke about the red man's way,
    and how they loved the land
    And they came from everywhere
    to the Great Divide
    Seeking a place to stand
    or a place to hide

    Down in the crowded bars,
    out for a good time,
    Can't wait to tell you all,
    what it's like up there
    And they called it paradise
    I don't know why
    Somebody laid the mountains low
    while the town got high

    Then the chilly winds blew down
    Across the desert
    through the canyons of the coast,
    to the Malibu
    Where the pretty people play,
    hungry for power
    to light their neon way
    and give them things to do

    Some rich men came and raped the land,
    Nobody caught 'em
    Put up a bunch of ugly boxes,
    and Jesus people bought 'em
    And they called it paradise
    The place to be
    They watched the hazy sun, sinking in the sea

    You can leave it all behind
    and sail to Lahaina
    just like the missionaries did, so many years ago
    They even brought a neon sign said "Jesus is coming"
    Brought the white man's burden down
    Brought the white man's reign

    Who will provide the grand design?
    What is yours and what is mine?
    'Cause there is no more new frontier
    We have got to make it here

    We satifsy our endless needs
    and justify our bloody deeds,
    in the name of destiny
    and in the name of God

    And you can see them there,
    On Sunday morning
    Stand up and sing about
    What it's like up there
    They call it paradise
    I don't know why
    You call someplace paradise,
    kiss it goodbye


    And the second was called 'Long Road Out Of Eden', depicting the fall:

    Eagles - Long Road Out of Eden by ariefb

    "Long Road Out Of Eden"

    Moon shining down through the palms
    Shadows moving on the sand
    Somebody whispering the twenty-third psalm
    Dusty rifle in his trembling hands

    Somebody trying just to stay alive
    He got promises to keep
    Over the ocean in america
    Far away and fast asleep

    Silent stars blinking in the blackness of an endless sky
    Cold silver satellites, ghostly caravans passing by
    Galaxies unfolding, new worlds being born
    Pilgrims and prodigals creeping toward the dawn
    But it's a long road out of eden

    Music blasting from an suv
    On a bright and sunny day
    Rolling down the interstate
    In the good ol' usa

    Having lunch at the petroleum club
    Smokin' fine cigars and swappin' lives
    He said: "gimme 'nother slice o' that barbecued brisket!"
    "gimme 'nother piece o' that pecan pie!"

    Freeways flickering, cell phones chiming a tune
    We're riding to utopia, road map says we'll be arriving soon
    Captains of the old order clinging to the reins
    Assuring us these aches inside are only growing pains
    But it's a long road out of eden

    Back home i was so certain
    The path was very clear
    But now i have to wonder: "what are we doing here?"
    I'm not counting on tomorrow
    And i can't tell wrong from right
    But i'd give anything to be there in your arms tonight

    Weaving down the american highway
    Through the litter and the wreckage and the cultural junk
    Bloated with entitlement, loaded on propaganda
    And now we're driving dazed and drunk

    Been down the road to damascus,
    The road to mandalay
    Met the ghost of caesar on the appian way
    He said, "it's hard to stop this bingeing, once you get a taste."
    "but the road to empire is a bloody stupid waste."

    Behold the bitten apple - the power of the tools
    But all the knowledge in the world is of no use to fools
    And it's a long road out of eden....


    If art, all art, is concerned with truth, then a society in denial will not find much use for it.

    If art reflects life, it does so with special mirrors.

  5. #20


    Love it Stan.

  6. #21


    Originally Posted by Hubble
    Love it Stan.
    Thanks Hubs.

    Henley was a master of allegory in lyrics IMO.

    Not a bad singer and drummer either

  7. Default

    Originally Posted by Hubble
    It seems many of us love and admire the current European empire and many of us don't, and some of us are fans of the latest incarnation of the American empire and many of us aren't. Apparently most of us (but by no means all of us) did love the American empire when its figurehead was a handsome and well-educated man of Kenyan/American/European origin, but we are not so enamoured of it now its figurehead is a strange looking man of Scottish/European origin.

    We're generally not fans of the Russian empire except when it threw off the communist yoke and embraced capitalism (although we're ambivalent about that), although some of us appreciated its efforts in bringing an end to many of the horrors of the Syrian civil war, and some of us didn't (we seem to have forgotten about Syria by the way), and most of us are happy to use the gas supplied by the Russian empire. Similarly, most of us are not fans of the Chinese empire, although we are more than happy to use its cheap goods.

    We are no longer fans of the former European empires (well many of us aren't, although plenty are), including the British empire, although we are fans of many of its legacies, such as liberalism, human rights, the judicial system, democracy and so on.

    When it comes to religious empires, we're not particularly fans of those, unless we are members of those religions, then we're big fans, except Christians, many of whom seem conflicted about this.

    So my question is, do we want to be part of an empire or not? Would it be preferable if we called it a community? If the community is run by a banking/corporate cabal, does it really matter, as long as we continue to live in relative peace and prosperity? Does it matter if the goods and lifestyle we enjoy is predicated on the oppression and misery of millions outside our empire who service our economy through their labour? Do we want everyone to be part of one big, happy empire - community - with one government, or do we prefer the unpredictably of national sovereignty and diversity?

    In Star Wars the Empire is universally bad, but is that fair? What do we think about empires?
    problem with formal communities is that they lead to unions. the EC became the EU. the original (edit)united(edit) states were a confederate community which became a union. later, when additional states with some of the original states formed a confederation they were forced back into the union. (the civil war and the subjugative inhumane policies by the victors on the south in the "peace"). the problem with political communities is that without fail individuals become invisible and dispensable. that is why scottish fishermen are not allowed to fish in scottish waters under the EU. ruined lives caused by inhuman decisions made from a distance. it is individuals who are your loved ones and those are the group who will help you. to the state you are a number. this is what thatcher meant when she said "there is no society". that is why gorbachev called the EU "the european soviet". . "he who reads the media is misinformed".. Twain. read disinformation by Ion Mihai Pacepa
    Last edited by QPR71; 06-04-2017 at 07:27 PM.


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