Europe. In or out?

[bakes8]

Is complicated. I'm in the remain camp but would like reform. If you speak to other main nationalities (Germany, France etc) the average person has the same concerns on open borders etc. They don't want it any more than we do. If the EU can be reformed we would be far stronger in it. With any luck if we do remain that can be a catalyst for reform, a wake up call. It also acts as a checks and balances against our own Government who I have less trust in and who are totally unrepresentative of the people. To say if we left we could govern ourselves totally ignores the reality of our Government and the failure of democracy in this country.

Not all immigration is from the EU so coming out of the EU will not solve that. We need immigrants in various industries. Health the obvious one but also large skills gap in engineering, tech industries. We have an aging population and our dependency on immigrants will increase not decrease.

A lot of SMEs are largely dependent on immigrant labour. If they lose a large chunk of that labour they will either go out of business or have to put their prices up. That potentially will have a huge knock on effect, particularly for the man in the street.

Benefits seems to have been made a major issue but the average immigrant claims less than the average Brit ... on a personal basis I have no time for scroungers regardless of where they were born (and no I'm not saying all those claiming benefits are scroungers). Hard working people, regardless again of nationality, are an asset to this country.

There will be NO reforms if we stay in the EU. None, Zero, Nada. Unless you consider more Federal intergration reform I'd vote out if I were you.

[Itsonlyagame]

on my point on the labour workers side of it was more - if you want to be paid more, learn a skill that is obscure and not everyone can do - just didnt want to quite word it like that. The answer isnt, kick the eastern Europeans out, then we can bump the prices back up.

Why stop at obscure ? Why not just say "better" or "more skilled". Let's face it, patronisation is not something you've worried about in previous posts so why the concern now.
The problem with your proposal is most bricklayers, plumbers etc aren't in a position to retrain as lawyers and teachers. For one retraining takes an awful lot of time and money and on top of that an academic background. I don't know many brickies who have a degree, or even a handful of 'O'levels ( giving away my age there )
However, if all of those people were suddenly able to take up positions in the "obscure" jobs, I wonder what the reaction would be from the people already doing those jobs once they realised there was a surplus of labour in their field, thus adversely affecting their wages ?
Funnily enough your actually proving the point I made in my earlier post which you disagreed with, that your average middle class white collar worker doesn't care about immigration because it doesn't affect them negatively.

[Itsonlyagame]

on my point on the labour workers side of it was more - if you want to be paid more, learn a skill that is obscure and not everyone can do - just didnt want to quite word it like that. The answer isnt, kick the eastern Europeans out, then we can bump the prices back up.

And yet again you've twisted people's words. Nobody on here, including myself, has said we want anybody kicked out.
You really should take the time to read people's posts properly before you decide to disagree with them.

[Ramsey is god]

And yet again you've twisted people's words. Nobody on here, including myself, has said we want anybody kicked out.
You really should take the time to read people's posts properly before you decide to disagree with them.

so people complaining that eastern European people are coming in and driving down the price on labour work, so they want to vote out..... How does what i said not summarize that?

[gaza09]

so people complaining that eastern European people are coming in and driving down the price on labour work, so they want to vote out..... How does what i said not summarize that?

Because no one wants to kick anyone out, we wish to make our own immigration policy again. Anyone who has come to this country legally will continue to be allowed to live here legally.

[Itsonlyagame]

so people complaining that eastern European people are coming in and driving down the price on labour work, so they want to vote out..... How does what i said not summarize that?

Taking more control over future immigration, which is what some of the out campaign want and forced repatriation are two completely different things are they not ?
Nobody here has suggested "kicking Eastern Europeans out" and no mainstream government would do it anyway, even if we left the EU.
So no, what you said doesn't summarise it, far from it.

[vanhoop]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...orried-it.html
10.45 on bbc tonight. Might sway a few

[vanhoop]

Even godfreys of Hornchurch got a mention!!!

[Itsonlyagame]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...orried-it.html
10.45 on bbc tonight. Might sway a few

What, someone whose not your archetypal white Englishman voicing concerns over the amount of immigration. Must be that "marketing ploy" you were on about Ramsey is God.

[Joe90]

There are no facts surrounding this debate. Neither side can prove their points, it's all speculation. The only way to find out who is right is by voting leave...it's a big gamble and one we can't say conclusively will be worth it.

[MattyRangers]

There are no facts surrounding this debate. Neither side can prove their points, it's all speculation. The only way to find out who is right is by voting leave...it's a big gamble and one we can't say conclusively will be worth it.

Great nutshell.

[Jeems]

There are no facts surrounding this debate. Neither side can prove their points, it's all speculation. The only way to find out who is right is by voting leave...it's a big gamble and one we can't say conclusively will be worth it.

And this is why we'll likely remain in - too much doubt, people dont like taking risks.

[Itsonlyagame]

And this is why we'll likely remain in - too much doubt, people dont like taking risks.

That's the likely outcome, we'll do a Scotland.
That'll be a shame in my opinion as we'll never know what might have been.

[Ramsey is god]

What, someone whose not your archetypal white Englishman voicing concerns over the amount of immigration. Must be that "marketing ploy" you were on about Ramsey is God.

iv really got your back up havnt i. Is it because i don't agree with your opinion.

It was a question i asked as a mere observation.

Calm yourself down, people are allowed to think differently to you. I hope the rest of the country puts a bit of thought into the actual effect of leaving and not just concerned about border control as its the only topic you seem interested in.

[Itsonlyagame]

iv really got your back up havnt i. Is it because i don't agree with your opinion.

It was a question i asked as a mere observation.

Calm yourself down, people are allowed to think differently to you. I hope the rest of the country puts a bit of thought into the actual effect of leaving and not just concerned about border control as its the only topic you seem interested in.

I'm very calm thanks.
I'm not the one having pre-menstrual-esque outbursts or throwing inaccurate accusations around about people wanting to "close borders" or "kick Eastern Europeans out" and making additional accusations of racism and slander whilst making derogatory remarks about people who aren't happy with the current amount of immigration, accusing them being too lazy to look for work.
Regarding your question relating to the "marketing ploy" it was loaded, as you well know.
As far as getting my back up, I'd say most people would be irritated by someone who is so up themselves they can't even be bothered to read someone else's posts properly before launching in with a reply. You've done it time and time again during this thread with various people.
Anyway, maybe we should draw a line under it now otherwise i imagine we'll end up in the slug out thread, somewhere you've had plenty of experience of with various posters.
I can't think why.