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Thread: PM's Snoopers' Charter

  1. #31

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    Originally Posted by Norths
    You can bet your life this would be used for things other than the security of the nation.

    Things like illegal streaming as an example. Fines would be flying out left, right and center.

    The net is something the authorities cant control, but this would go a long way to giving them a bit of power over it.

    Not to be trusted.
    Your complaining about potentially being caught doing something illegal and then say not to trust the powers that catch you. I hope you can see the irony there mate.
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  2. #32

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    Originally Posted by Stanley
    Sorry, I meant the hyperlinks within the article I posted in the OP, plus the Wiki entry Hubs posted above, plus a Google search of the Act. Anyway never mind, it's pretty clear what your position is which is fair enough. I am a patriot but also a libertarian (of no particular political persuasion), which is probably why I hold a fundamentally different position on principle. We can argue about the details all day long here, but for me this is a massive step towards a totalitarian police state (i.e. Orwell's forecast becoming a reality), and over people's lives overall, not just their online one - but as we know, the two are now inextricably linked in these modern times. Plenty more examples of this in the video in the OP too.
    I've just read the links. Unless I'm mistake the act stipulates that internet companies must maintain connection records for a year. Those records can be requested by the relevant authorities without a warrant. That means they can see what websites you've accessed. They cannot see what content within that site you've been looking at without a warrant.
    As far as snooping through your telly or phone, warrant required.
    I don't see a problem with that but we are all different so maybe agree to disagree on this one !
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  3. #33

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    Be interested to know people's thoughts on ID cards.

    Personally, I think they are a great idea.

    Packed with potentially useful options, if one can get over the indignity of a policeman finding out your real name.

  4. #34

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    I quite enjoy the knowledge I'm being watched.........sometimes too much

  5. #35

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    Originally Posted by Hove Ranger
    I quite enjoy the knowledge I'm being watched.........sometimes too much
    Well if others are right its probably happening at this very moment mate ....
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  6. #36

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    Originally Posted by Itsonlyagame
    The internet has a lot to answer for mate, it really does.
    From child bullies to worldwide terrorist organisations and plenty in between.
    It does need to be policed, plain and simple and if that offends some of the "what about my basic rights" brigade, well, at the risk off offending some people, I find that quite selfish.
    Everything you've cited above existed long before the internet Itso and none of it justifies controlling it by governments and their agencies, IMHO. Here's my question for you: who watches the watchers? You've talked in another post on here about how the police force are terribly underfunded and how they let people with no proper experience in at detective level etc. Well how much more do you think that might apply to those who could access our data, should they choose? Did you see the list of organisations who can already get access to our data on that link I posted? We have no independent body looking at them, we have no idea who they are or what agenda they might have. No, give me the free internet every day mate.

    The way I look at it, we're at the very beginning of an entirely new era in human evolution - the internet era. It is a game-changer so huge that in years to come I believe historians will refer to the two ages of modern man - BI - Before Internet and AI - After Internet. And what the internet is offering us is a way to connect and communicate, solve problems and administer our world that totally supersedes the old paradigms, and that includes the whole idea of 'government' as it stands. That's why governments are so afraid of the internet - because they know it's the death knell for their whole way of doing things, of top-down governance. As I've said before - this has nothing to do with preventing terrorism - that's just an excuse - this is just another attempt to control us. Because of course don't think for a minute they would stop here. Terrorism would continue, further atrocities would lead to further demands to curb our freedom - on and on. That's why people call it: Problem, Reaction, Solution, and this is the prime reason so-called false flag events take place.

    I personally think, feel and hope, this is the end of the old way of doing things, but I also acknowledge a new way of doing things can be pretty scary to comprehend. I also feel a huge amount of our populace suffer from what is known as 'Stockholm Syndrome' - loving their captors and their prison. I would love thing to return to a more communal, community based way of doing things that I remember from my childhood, before Thatcher and her ilk set about destroying it. I think we can return to a more social and democratic way of living again, but it's not by turning the clock back, it's by being part of what's happening next and not resisting it. Governments are like dinosaurs, resisting the change at any cost. But their time has come - IMO. The only alternative seems to be totalitarianism. Which one do you want?

  7. #37

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    Hubs, I'm sure you understood the point I was making about bullying etc as in online bullying.
    In answer to your question regarding who watches the watchers.
    There are bodies like the IPCC, but whether they are truly impartial I couldn't say for sure.
    In terms of the government, well I guess it's people like us. But of course we can't see everything they get up to, it's called national security.
    I agree there will be renegades within every organisation but that's mankind for you. Some good some bad.
    Let me ask you a question if you don't mind.
    If you thought the new act wouldn't be abused in any way shape or form would you still be against it.
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  8. #38

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    Originally Posted by Itsonlyagame
    I appreciate the authorities do things they shouldn't, that's the way of the world.
    What would be naive is to think that overall, the way we live is almost certainly not better for it.
    What's also naive is to believe that these new powers are solely for the purpose of catching terrorists and criminals.

  9. #39

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    Originally Posted by Stanley
    What's also naive is to believe that these new powers are solely for the purpose of catching terrorists and criminals.
    I agree Stan.
    I think you and Hubble may have me down as some sort of gullible sheep, accepting of everything I'm told by the powers that be.
    Let's cut to the chase, this question is to you too Hubs. If you don't mind me asking, how do you think the act will adversely affect you on a personal level. Forget about the whole right to privacy thing for a moment.
    What exactly do you think will happen that will affect you as an individual.
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  10. #40

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    Originally Posted by Stanley
    What's also naive is to believe that these new powers are solely for the purpose of catching terrorists and criminals.
    I agree Stan.
    I think you and Hubble may have me down as some sort of gullible sheep, accepting of everything I'm told by the powers that be.
    Let's cut to the chase, this question is to you too Hubs. If you don't mind me asking, how do you think the act will adversely affect you on a personal level. Forget about the whole right to privacy thing for a moment.
    What exactly do you think will happen that will affect you as an individual.
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  11. #41

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    Originally Posted by Itsonlyagame
    Forget about the whole right to privacy thing for a moment.
    Impossible to do that Itso. This is intrinsic to the entire principle of it.

    Just as one small example: If I decide I want to go off the grid and drive up to John O'Groats to do some meditative navel-gazing for a week or so, then it is every human being's inalienable RIGHT to do that WITHOUT being tracked, surveilled, monitored etc.

  12. #42

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    Originally Posted by Stanley
    Impossible to do that Itso. This is intrinsic to the entire principle of it.

    Just as one small example: If I decide I want to go off the grid and drive up to John O'Groats to do some meditative navel-gazing for a week or so, then it is every human being's inalienable RIGHT to do that WITHOUT being tracked, surveilled, monitored etc.
    Ok
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  13. #43

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    Originally Posted by Stanley
    Impossible to do that Itso. This is intrinsic to the entire principle of it.

    Just as one small example: If I decide I want to go off the grid and drive up to John O'Groats to do some meditative navel-gazing for a week or so, then it is every human being's inalienable RIGHT to do that WITHOUT being tracked, surveilled, monitored etc.
    Do you not agree though Stan, with things as they are now, it would be very difficult for you to do that without being tracked.
    Cameras picking up your vehicals whereabouts. Records of where you used your phone, bank cards etc.
    It's nigh on impossible to go off grid without the authorities having some idea of where you are, if they either wanted or needed to.
    The point I'm trying to make and the reason I asked you and Hubs that question is I just don't think the authorities are that interested in the likes of us.
    I get what your saying about inalienable rights but let's face it, our rights of privacy, freedom etc are restricted anyway.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but wanting to see the act mothballed seems to be a matter of principle for you, as opposed to any tangible change to your daily life.
    I don't doubt I could and would be abused by some, but again, I'd like to know how that will impact on you and me personally.

    Hubs, you mentioned Stockholm syndrome.
    I don't trust the authorities implicitly. But, i obviously don't mistrust them to the same degree you do.
    Either that or I just choose not to go there with the whole "they are out to get us" idea.
    I prefer th think that rather being out to get us they are just out for themselves, as a lot of people are in most walks of life.
    You could argue that the two are inextricably linked. In order to feather their own nest they have to control us and shite on us continually from a great height. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

    My take on this is :

    Will the already stretched authorities have either the time or inclination to continually spy on me and rummage through my date. No

    Even if they did, would it really bother me given what they'd find. No

    Would I feel like I'd lost my privacy. Maybe, maybe not, but I could live with it.

    Will these new powers help convict at least some some of the many wronguns out there who use technology to pursue their twisted and vile actions. Almost certainly.

    That's good enough for me.
    He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

  14. #44

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    Itso, I don't for one minute think you are some sort of gullible sheep. I understand your position, but it's not one I agree with. I have stated enough times in this thread already my reasoning for opposing further surveillance and intrusion in our lives, and what I think its real purpose is; surely I've made that clear?

  15. #45

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    Originally Posted by Itsonlyagame
    Your complaining about potentially being caught doing something illegal and then say not to trust the powers that catch you. I hope you can see the irony there mate.
    This is a great point Itso - it's a bit like the inherent hatred people have for traffic wardens. If you are illegally parked you get a ticket, ergo don't do it in the first place. We all get the hump when we get stuck in an inexplicable traffic jam, often caused by someone being illegally parked, but the offender inconveniences lots of people and will no doubt rant about the ***in* **n* that gives them a ticket for breaking the law
    When all is said and done, what's left to talk about and what will we do?

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