Mackie and SWP

[silvercue]

We've already had the Mackie debate and this board has voted that he is a Premier League player. Time for the nay sayers to move on.

I've noted that the nay sayers all seem to dismiss the value of heart, desire, and commitment to the cause;

Err right - so we had a poll once and now can't discuss reasons why we are bottom?? Right.

Mackie - we all like him for his effort, but effort doesn't win football matches - talent does and he is a sub against tired defenders at best. Championship or a PL club that will only ever be in relagation fights....he has not got enough quality if we really want to be taken seriously.

[Mellowhoop]

Very true silver

[Ric-Roc]

Err right - so we had a poll once and now can't discuss reasons why we are bottom?? Right.

Mackie - we all like him for his effort, but effort doesn't win football matches - talent does and he is a sub against tired defenders at best. Championship or a PL club that will only ever be in relagation fights....he has not got enough quality if we really want to be taken seriously.

Spot on. Poor player. Impact sub at best.

[pauldrayton]

I don't mind what poll has said what, in my opinion Mackie is not good enough.

Top bloke, 100% effort, will run all day, great heart, but that will only get you so far. He doesn't have the quality to be a Premier League player as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think he'd get into any other team in the league, and if it was up to me he wouldn't get into ours either.

Nothing against him, but he's not up to it.

[Shepherds Mush]

Mackie came off, Bothroyd came on and we let in a goal.

[Geng]

So many people stuck in the 1970s here. Wide players can do more than 'get down the line, beat their man and get crosses in the box'

If we were Stoke, and had Crouch/Kenwyne to aim at, then fine. But we have a pacy forward in Remy, and an incredibly creative attacker in Adel. Why on earth would we want to send over crosses for those two? Harry has given no indication that this is the sort of game he wants to play. It's possible when Zamora is back we'll see more crosses, but I think playing the ball forward to BZ for him to lay it off is more likely.

Not that I don't agree with the post - our wide players have been a massive weakness all season - but judging them on 'getting crosses in' is daft. They're supposed to break through the channels and get onto through balls. No need to beat players if Adel is passing it beyond them for you...

[supahoopsaaa]

Both are poor at keeping hold of the ball to give the defence a break. Adel is the only one who can retain possession for any length of time. Our wide men should be able to do that regardless of whether they cross pass or beat 5 men and smash it into row z.

[zeberdee]

After about 20 minutes yesterday the CM was overrun and never looked like retaking it.
A little of that is the wide players fault but mostly it was because Derry+Mbia were not able to compete without another CM in there. Although they tried their best and defended great they were not able to operate in midfield which was needed.
I expect the reason for chasing M'vila + maybe Diame is so that the team can cope better with 4 in the middle with little(Remy) and large(BZ) up top.
Being forced to play 451 is very limiting. That was what I thought anyway.

[stanistheman]

So many people stuck in the 1970s here. Wide players can do more than 'get down the line, beat their man and get crosses in the box'

If we were Stoke, and had Crouch/Kenwyne to aim at, then fine. But we have a pacy forward in Remy, and an incredibly creative attacker in Adel. Why on earth would we want to send over crosses for those two? Harry has given no indication that this is the sort of game he wants to play. It's possible when Zamora is back we'll see more crosses, but I think playing the ball forward to BZ for him to lay it off is more likely.

Not that I don't agree with the post - our wide players have been a massive weakness all season - but judging them on 'getting crosses in' is daft. They're supposed to break through the channels and get onto through balls. No need to beat players if Adel is passing it beyond them for you...

Fair point about crosses to players like Crouch etc, by beating the full back and getting to the byline to pull the ball back for teammates in the box is also good wing play and neither Mackie or SWP do that. Fabio did this late in the game against Spurs and Mackie failed to make a near post run to connect with the ball.

[stanistheman]

After about 20 minutes yesterday the CM was overrun and never looked like retaking it.
A little of that is the wide players fault but mostly it was because Derry+Mbia were not able to compete without another CM in there. Although they tried their best and defended great they were not able to operate in midfield which was needed.
I expect the reason for chasing M'vila + maybe Diame is so that the team can cope better with 4 in the middle with little(Remy) and large(BZ) up top.
Being forced to play 451 is very limiting. That was what I thought anyway.

True, Mbia and Derry were overrun. If Mackie and SWP were better at keeping possession and attacking full backs it would have helped. But they are not good enough as wingers and not good enough as left and right sided midfielders Faurlin and Park would have been better options for this role.

In my opinion if you're going to play 4-4-2 with wingers, then they have to be good at running at players and delivering crosses or passes from wide areas and the by line. Not much point in high crosses without a good target though, but getting to the byline and picking out a player to pass to, is also good wing play.

Otherwise, a 4-4-2 with good wide midfielders who keep possession well and can tackle is a decent option especially when trying to defend a narrow lead.

[zeberdee]

True, Mbia and Derry were overrun. If Mackie and SWP were better at keeping possession and attacking full backs it would have helped. But they are not good enough as wingers and not good enough as left and right sided midfielders Faurlin and Park would have been better options for this role.

In my opinion if you're going to play 4-4-2 with wingers, then they have to be good at running at players and delivering crosses or passes from wide areas and the by line. Not much point in high crosses without a good target though, but getting to the byline and picking out a player to pass to, is also good wing play.

Otherwise, a 4-4-2 with good wide midfielders who keep possession well and can tackle is a decent option especially when trying to defend a narrow lead.

Sure I expect they would probably have competed better and been more solid. Not by a lot but by a bit.
But if you need 4 DMs across the midfield to even compete that says to me that none of them are quite good enough. That is just as limiting as being forced to play 451 just to mob up in the middle.

As for the wide players yes it would be good to have more competition for their places (someone like Krancjar for example would probably deliver more than either of them) but that should be secondary to improving the spine of the team CD/CM/CF imo.