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  • QPRDave
    replied
    Fishnik
    "The UK government is only answerable to the UK voter and no one else. Parliament is sovereign and can do anything they want"...Disagree, we take orders and spend good money doing it
    "The Appledore Shipyard is not shutting down because of the EU." ..... It's not what Union bosses are saying. Every govt contract has to go out to tender, and other EU govts subsidise their industries.
    "If you don't like tendering across the EU than you also don't want to win contracts across the EU. Believe it or not we do quite well out of it "...... Like Bombardier ?

    "With regards to immigration, it's all a myth and wild claims"
    20 Bogus Arguments for Mass Immigration


    History & Miscellaneous: MW 269
    1.Introduction

    This paper outlines the many myths that are put forward by the mass immigration lobby in support of the current levels of immigration and dispels each myth in turn. 2.‘Immigration provides great economic benefit’

    For many years the Labour government claimed that immigration added £6 billion a year to GDP. However, the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee[1], reporting in April 2008, said that what mattered was GDP per head. They concluded that:
    We have found no evidence for the argument, made by the government, business and many others, that net immigration generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population.
    In January 2012 the Migration Advisory Committee[2] went further. They said that even GDP per head exaggerated the benefit of immigration because:
    It is the immigrants themselves rather than the extant residents who are the main gainers.
    They suggested that the GDP of residents should be the main focus. They recognised that the resident population would gain via any “dynamic effects” of skilled immigration on productivity and innovation, remarking that “these exist and may be large, but they are elusive to measure”.

    In their annual Fiscal Sustainability Report, the Office for Budgetary Responsibility concluded in August 2013:
    In our attempt to summarise the vast literature on the impact of immigration on the labour market and productivity we have not found definitive evidence on the impact of immigrants on productivity and GDP. Most of the literature seems to indicate that immigrants have a positive, although not significant, impact on productivity and GDP.[3]
    As regards EU migration, a study by the NIESR in 2011 found that the potential long-run impact of EU8 migration (Poland et al) on GDP per head was expected to be “negligible”[4] ranging from 0.17% to -0.17%. However, this result relied upon an upward ‘age adjustment’ on the assumption that migrants tended to be of working age and thus to be “net contributors to the government coffers”. Subsequent research on the fiscal contribution of migrants to the UK suggests that this assumption may well be unsound (see 3. below) 3.‘Immigrants are not a problem as they work hard and pay tax’

    Some of the limited research in this area had found that there might be a small positive fiscal impact to immigration. Nonetheless, according to the House of Lords Economic Committee “the fiscal impact (of immigration) is small compared to GDP and cannot be used to justify large-scale immigration”.

    However, the presumption of even a small fiscal benefit has been comprehensively overturned by a UCL study published in 2014 which found the fiscal impact of migrants in the UK between 1995 and 2011 was in fact a net cost of between £115 and £160 billion that is between £19 and £26 million per day.[5]

    The same study claimed that East European migrants contributed £5 billion to the Exchequer between 2001 and 2011. However that calculation was based on the assumption that they paid, from the moment of their arrival, corporate and business taxes at the same rate as lifelong UK residents. Correcting for this brought the contribution close to zero. 4.‘Migrants are less likely to claim benefits’

    Figures from the DWP show that migrants to the UK are less likely to claim out-of-work benefits. But large amounts of the total benefits bill are paid to people in work, in particular tax credits and housing benefit. Research shows that some migrant groups are much more likely to be claiming these key benefits than the general population.[6]5. ‘Britain is only the 39th most crowded country in the world’

    93% of immigrants go to England so England is what matters in this context. England is the second most densely populated country in the EU with 417 people per square kilometre, after the Netherlands (with 500 people per square kilometre) and excluding islands such as Malta.

    Excluding island states and city states like Singapore, England is the eighth most crowded country in the world, just behind India and nearly twice as crowded as Germany and three and a half times as crowded as France.

    We're never going to agree fish, so i'll not post in here again, it'll only cause arguments.
    But I will leave you with this thought, why is it most of the very wealthy and ex politicians who signed
    treaties like Maastricht (signed without peoples vote/consent) are all for this?
    Some don't even pay tax here, because they're on a nice little earner, like "farmer" Heseltine, literally getting money for nothing

    Leave a comment:


  • QPRDave
    replied
    Originally posted by Gtleighsr3 View Post

    U can't be a Nazi,they were european
    you're replies are in a different class

    Leave a comment:


  • fisnik
    replied
    Originally posted by QPRDave View Post
    Haven't posted in here so will leave it to just this one.
    I want a govt that is answerable to me the UK voter. At the moment they take orders.
    Appledore Shipyard has just announced it will close. The main reason is because
    the UK have to put out to tender all contracts across the eu, and UK yards can't compete with foreign
    govt subsidised yards. That is what the eu brings to Britain.
    I want UK fishing boats catching our fish in our waters, and fishing ports and towns will be regenerated.
    I want a sensible immigration policy, only skilled workers that we need to come in.
    And finally I don't want to under the power of the ECJ that has given more rights to wrong doers than the wronged.
    Apparently I'm a stupid, ignorant biggoted nazi and countless other things on twitter.....Oh well
    The UK government is only answerable to the UK voter and no one else. Parliament is sovereign and can do anything they want. They don't take orders. They sign treaties and generally as country we honour our word when we give it, as do most developed countries. We could come out of the EU tomorrow if we wanted. All it needs is an act of parliament, it's just that we would be breaking a treaty that we signed.

    The EU is answerable to each member country which sends their prime ministers/heads of government, to the EU council and when there's council summits they decide stuff, together. These heads of government are answerable to their voters. There's also the EU parliament which also has a say.

    The Appledore Shipyard is not shutting down because of the EU. As far as I know it lost its contract with armed forces of Malta which is why it got into trouble. Who knows maybe Malta was worried about Brexit. I'll say it again after Brexit, our manufacturing sector and heavy industry will have to be left behind. This is what the Brexiteers themselves say.

    If you don't like tendering across the EU than you also don't want to win contracts across the EU. Believe it or not we do quite well out of it as our service sector like banks and insurance are dominant and we are reaping the profits of the single market. It's just that we don't get to hear a lot of this. Bad news travels quicker. You might lose a bit on fishing and other things but gain a lot more on the rest.

    With regards to immigration, it's all a myth and wild claims. It will not come down, it will probably go up. We will get our immigration from further afield now instead of Europe. If anyone is worried about integration and the rate of cultural change you can bet it will be worse now as non EU migration will be the bulk of the migrants now. We may now have more nurses coming in from Zimbabwe, Jamaica and the Philippines instead of Spain, Italy and Poland. MigrationWatch themselves have said as much and branded the governments post Brexit policy as going from the frying pan into the fire.

    Also over the years the majority of the immigration coming into the country has been non-EU migrants. Most years non-EU has been the vast majority of immigration. The government has always had full control over non-EU immigration and they have done nothing to reduce the numbers. The irony is that now we're coming out of EU in order to take back control and give it to the government who I suspect will do nothing about it just as their track record shows.

    You are mistaking the ECJ with the European Court of the Human Rights (ECHR) which has nothing to do with the EU. The ECJ just deals with contract law and is not to be confused with the ECHR.

    The ECHR is not an EU body. Even Russia and Moldova are part of the ECHR which are not in the EU. ECHR only deals with human rights cases and we are one of the main countries that drafted the European Convention of Human Rights (e.g. No death penalty, no torture etc). It's got Europe in the name but not part of the EU, we can come out of it and not come of the EU. It's just that we'd be compared to North Korea or Burma or something and lose face.

    I agree the name calling and all that other stuff happens a lot. It's doubly worse really as it goes on both sides. It really doesn't help when we need to bring the country together instead of apart.
    Last edited by fisnik; 01-11-2018, 10:37 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gtleighsr3
    replied
    Originally posted by QPRDave View Post
    Haven't posted in here so will leave it to just this one.
    I want a govt that is answerable to me the UK voter. At the moment they take orders.
    Appledore Shipyard has just announced it will close. The main reason is because
    the UK have to put out to tender all contracts across the eu, and UK yards can't compete with foreign
    govt subsidised yards. That is what the eu brings to Britain.
    I want UK fishing boats catching our fish in our waters, and fishing ports and towns will be regenerated.
    I want a sensible immigration policy, only skilled workers that we need to come in.
    And finally I don't want to under the power of the ECJ that has given more rights to wrong doers than the wronged.
    Apparently I'm a stupid, ignorant biggoted nazi and countless other things on twitter.....Oh well
    U can't be a Nazi,they were european

    Leave a comment:


  • QPRDave
    replied
    Haven't posted in here so will leave it to just this one.
    I want a govt that is answerable to me the UK voter. At the moment they take orders.
    Appledore Shipyard has just announced it will close. The main reason is because
    the UK have to put out to tender all contracts across the eu, and UK yards can't compete with foreign
    govt subsidised yards. That is what the eu brings to Britain.
    I want UK fishing boats catching our fish in our waters, and fishing ports and towns will be regenerated.
    I want a sensible immigration policy, only skilled workers that we need to come in.
    And finally I don't want to under the power of the ECJ that has given more rights to wrong doers than the wronged.
    Apparently I'm a stupid, ignorant biggoted nazi and countless other things on twitter.....Oh well

    Leave a comment:


  • Johnnykc
    replied
    Originally posted by fisnik View Post

    It's not for me to comment on what Johnny might have intended but If I could say what I've noticed about this whole thing. One of the most common themes you notice is that a lot of people say: "Just get on with it.", "Let's just leave already", "Why ain't we left yet" etc. It's just that it gives off the vibe that a lot of people think it's really simple and easy.

    Forget agreeing on anything else but if we had to agree on just one thing, I think it would have to be that Brexit is not simple, it's not easy and it's really complex. If it was easy we would have been out by now. Hopefully we can agree on that.
    Apologies for not making it clearer, but that was my point exactly.....whereas your post highlights the obvious intricacies and real life difficulties of extricating ourselves from the EU.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shepherds Mush
    replied
    If Germany weren't so dominant in the EU they would have fcked off out of it years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian Wilson
    replied
    Originally posted by fisnik View Post

    It's not for me to comment on what Johnny might have intended but If I could say what I've noticed about this whole thing. One of the most common themes you notice is that a lot of people say: "Just get on with it.", "Let's just leave already", "Why ain't we left yet" etc. It's just that it gives off the vibe that a lot of people think it's really simple and easy.

    Forget agreeing on anything else but if we had to agree on just one thing, I think it would have to be that Brexit is not simple, it's not easy and it's really complex. If it was easy we would have been out by now. Hopefully we can agree on that.
    I see this a lot too. People who want to leave regardless of how terrible a deal it might turn out to be. Surely that has to come into play?

    Leave a comment:


  • fisnik
    replied
    Originally posted by Itsonlyagame View Post

    Fair play Johnny, it must be hard having to dumb yourself down enough to be able to come on here with us ‘men in the pub’
    It's not for me to comment on what Johnny might have intended but If I could say what I've noticed about this whole thing. One of the most common themes you notice is that a lot of people say: "Just get on with it.", "Let's just leave already", "Why ain't we left yet" etc. It's just that it gives off the vibe that a lot of people think it's really simple and easy.

    Forget agreeing on anything else but if we had to agree on just one thing, I think it would have to be that Brexit is not simple, it's not easy and it's really complex. If it was easy we would have been out by now. Hopefully we can agree on that.

    Leave a comment:


  • fisnik
    replied
    Originally posted by Blobbers View Post


    Since when did freedom become no more than "tribalism"?And quite frankly I see no evidence to sway my initial beliefs.In the final analysis winners don't have to justify themselves.

    Why can't freedom be tribalism? We're all free to be tribal. Freedom can be anything, I suppose. If you don't see any evidence, that's absolutely fine, that's the whole point of democracy and believing in what you think is right.
    I don't get your last point about winners but I guess you mean that leave won the referendum. I would say winners need to justify themselves, losers need to justify themselves and everyone does. No one or nothing is beyond questioning. We wouldn't progress as a society otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightonr
    replied
    Originally posted by Itsonlyagame View Post

    Fair play Johnny, it must be hard having to dumb yourself down enough to be able to come on here with us ‘men in the pub’

    Amazes me how eloquently some people argue, but just can’t see the obvious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Itsonlyagame
    replied
    Originally posted by Johnnykc View Post

    Nice to read a concise and reasoned view on possible brexit effects rather than the usual 'man in the pub' dross that is spouted on here.
    Fair play Johnny, it must be hard having to dumb yourself down enough to be able to come on here with us ‘men in the pub’

    Leave a comment:


  • Blobbers
    replied
    Originally posted by Rael View Post
    “Once someone is committed to a belief, contrary arguments may only serve to increase its strength: when people’s beliefs are challenged, they may become even more convinced that they are right, a phenomenon known as the ‘boomerang effect’.”

    Prof Stuart Sutherland
    Irrationality
    Rutgers Univ. Press
    1994

    What Prof. Sutherland was saying is that research shows that when presented with EVIDENCE which contradicts their beliefs, people dig their heels deeper rather than considering the option of changing their mind. The opposite of the scientific method basically.

    So it can be more comfortable to stay in your ideological foxhole firing at the enemy than to step out and try to engage. So much for the age of reason. We are awash with statistics but only quote the ones that validate our arguments. A nuanced view is frowned upon in these highly tribalistic times. For example I support brexit but also fear it. I agree with a lot of remainer arguments but still believe on balance that it's right to leave.

    Since when did freedom become no more than "tribalism"?And quite frankly I see no evidence to sway my initial beliefs.In the final analysis winners don't have to justify themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rael
    replied
    “Once someone is committed to a belief, contrary arguments may only serve to increase its strength: when people’s beliefs are challenged, they may become even more convinced that they are right, a phenomenon known as the ‘boomerang effect’.”

    Prof Stuart Sutherland
    Irrationality
    Rutgers Univ. Press
    1994

    What Prof. Sutherland was saying is that research shows that when presented with EVIDENCE which contradicts their beliefs, people dig their heels deeper rather than considering the option of changing their mind. The opposite of the scientific method basically.

    So it can be more comfortable to stay in your ideological foxhole firing at the enemy than to step out and try to engage. So much for the age of reason. We are awash with statistics but only quote the ones that validate our arguments. A nuanced view is frowned upon in these highly tribalistic times. For example I support brexit but also fear it. I agree with a lot of remainer arguments but still believe on balance that it's right to leave.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blobbers
    replied
    Power struggles within the bloc continue unabated.Macron fancies himself head honcho,Italy defaults on its budget...the cracks are there for all to see.UK may be the only ones banging on the door of a collapsed castle.Then there's the financial crash coming......

    Leave a comment:

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