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National conversation on immigration - Have your say

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  • #16
    Well seeing as test cases are being rolled out across the globe, from Finland to the States, I guess we'll soon have a better idea. If you think the current capitalist model is sustainable, with its ever-increasing extremes and dwindling resources, I'd say think again. The thing is, the call for UBI is coming just as much from the right, from the uber-capitalists, as it is from the left. Your example of Norway, and how you view it, is interesting. I'd say that by far the majority of people would want that life! #### being famous, how about peace of mind, food on the table and security of tenure? With a clean environment and beautiful nature all around, what's not to like about that? Sure, I get your underlying assertion that it's only capitalism and competition that creates innovation, but I call bullsh1t on that theory. We innovate because its in our genes. We create because we're born to create and it gives us pleasure to do it. If there were no financial incentive, merely the accolades and admiration of ones peers, I guarantee you people would strive to create things for that purpose alone.

    The obverse of capitalism is not necessarily socialism, and socialism is not in and of itself some kind of evil. It depends on all sorts of factors, but the kind of socialism we see in Finland and Norway - the two countries at the very top of all the polls on best place to live, highest standard of living and happiest population - is a positive and progressive one. It suits those who benefit most from capitalism to portray it as the only way, and to denigrate any alternatives. Of course, we've seen the disastrous results of systems where enforced social programmes run by dictators and despots like Mao and Stalin have seen the oppression and deaths of millions. But hey, guess what, the same happens in capitalist societies too - except usually all that is outsourced to third world countries where the masses pay the price of their masters' affluence. But even with capitalist countries - with America being the prime example - we see, alongside soaring wealth and productivity - despair, poverty, neglect, catastrophic environmental destruction and the world's largest prison population - something that is basically modern-day slavery on an industrial scale. You've also got vast industrial factory farming where billions of animals live short, brutal, horrific lives and their sorry effluence poisons the land and rivers for miles around.

    Once upon a time, capitalism looked like it was driving us towards a fantastic future of opportunity for all, health, wealth and abundant materialism. But the reality is that only a minority have ever truly benefited from that long-term. The majority, in this country, have benefitted from a mixture of capitalism AND socialism. The much better lives of the poor have been built on the foundations of the welfare state, not from someone giving them a hand up the greasy pole from above. We need to be flexible in our thinking if we're going to create any kind of society worth living in and clinging to rigid ideas ain't going to do it. UBI offers people more opportunity, because the most basic needs are met without conditions. This is not about giving people money to live lives of luxury, its about creating the best conditions for people to flourish. UBI would be a very modest sum given to all citizens and it would replace all previous benefits. There would be no means testing. It would mean that people can build something for themselves.

    The governmental system itself is outdated of course. I believe this will come to an end soon too. We're already seeing how alternative economic systems can run with blockchain technology. Allied to innovative thinking on how we move forward, there is an amazing opportunity for the human race to create societies that are at ease with themselves. Of course this may not happen. We may see technocratic elites rise up and sweep away the governmental system to rule over the rest of us in a kind of new-age plutocracy. I'm simply suggesting - alongside the likes of all these highly successful capitalists - that UBI is an idea worth exploring.
    Last edited by Hubble; 19-02-2018, 02:45 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Hubble View Post
      Well seeing as test cases are being rolled out across the globe, from Finland to the States, I guess we'll soon have a better idea. If you think the current capitalist model is sustainable, with its ever-increasing extremes and dwindling resources, I'd say think again. The thing is, the call for UBI is coming just as much from the right, from the uber-capitalists, as it is from the left. Your example of Norway, and how you view it, is interesting. I'd say that by far the majority of people would want that life! #### being famous, how about peace of mind, food on the table and security of tenure? With a clean environment and beautiful nature all around, what's not to like about that? Sure, I get your underlying assertion that it's only capitalism and competition that creates innovation, but I call bullsh1t on that theory. We innovate because its in our genes. We create because we're born to create and it gives us pleasure to do it. If there were no financial incentive, merely the accolades and admiration of ones peers, I guarantee you people would strive to create things for that purpose alone.

      The obverse of capitalism is not necessarily socialism, and socialism is not in and of itself some kind of evil. It depends on all sorts of factors, but the kind of socialism we see in Finland and Norway - the two countries at the very top of all the polls on best place to live, highest standard of living and happiest population - is a positive and progressive one. It suits those who benefit most from capitalism to portray it as the only way, and to denigrate any alternatives. Of course, we've seen the disastrous results of systems where enforced social programmes run by dictators and despots like Mao and Stalin have seen the oppression and deaths of millions. But hey, guess what, the same happens in capitalist societies too - except usually all that is outsourced to third world countries where the masses pay the price of their masters' affluence. But even with capitalist countries - with America being the prime example - we see, alongside soaring wealth and productivity - despair, poverty, neglect, catastrophic environmental destruction and the world's largest prison population - something that is basically modern-day slavery on an industrial scale. You've also got vast industrial factory farming where billions of animals live short, brutal, horrific lives and their sorry effluence poisons the land and rivers for miles around.

      Once upon a time, capitalism looked like it was driving us towards a fantastic future of opportunity for all, health, wealth and abundant materialism. But the reality is that only a minority have ever truly benefited from that long-term. The majority, in this country, have benefitted from a mixture of capitalism AND socialism. The much better lives of the poor have been built on the foundations of the welfare state, not from someone giving them a hand up the greasy pole from above. We need to be flexible in our thinking if we're going to create any kind of society worth living in and clinging to rigid ideas ain't going to do it. UBI offers people more opportunity, because the most basic needs are met without conditions. This is not about giving people money to live lives of luxury, its about creating the best conditions for people to flourish. UBI would be a very modest sum given to all citizens and it would replace all previous benefits. There would be no means testing. It would mean that people can build something for themselves.

      The governmental system itself is outdated of course. I believe this will come to an end soon too. We're already seeing how alternative economic systems can run with blockchain technology. Allied to innovative thinking on how we move forward, there is an amazing opportunity for the human race to create societies that are at ease with themselves. Of course this may not happen. We may see technocratic elites rise up and sweep away the governmental system to rule over the rest of us in a kind of new-age plutocracy. I'm simply suggesting - alongside the likes of all these highly successful capitalists - that UBI is an idea worth exploring.
      Agreed

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      • #18
        Ways in which blockchain technology could provide sources of income once automation replaces jobs - particularly from 33:25 onwards, in this interview with one of the world's most knowledgeable people in the crypto space. The whole video is a great education though:

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        • #19
          Immigrants from Estonia should be definitely allowed in.
          Banning people is no longer my hobby,
          but take a look at my photo blog:

          http://kirillqpr.blogspot.com/

          How and why did I start supporting QPR in Estonia:
          http://www.wearetherangersboys.com/forum/blog.php?b=852

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kirill View Post
            Immigrants from Estonia should be definitely allowed in.
            The effect on our country would be minimal, given the population of your country only consists of you and a sexually abused hamster.
            He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long

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