Here goes tin hat time you ain't going to like this

[QPROslo]

I don’t mean to split hairs Oslo but you have completely contradicted yourself.
You say that progress needs to be measured over the whole season, but then say we havent made progress because last season we finished 16th and this season we are 17th, even though we still have nearly 3 months left of the season.

Both 31 matches and 46 matches are a fairly good base for judging progress. Two cup matches is not really the same, despite the fact we all enjoy it - that's my point!

[QPROslo]

Also we won 6 from 15 , wouldn’t call that ending the season very well

I though the finish was very good given the fact we played one of the youngest teams in English football. It made me very optimistic about the future

[CroydonCaptainJack]

To be fair to Oslo, he has made a few good points and provided a very reasoned case.
It does feel like we have made progress to me but the bare facts can suggest otherwise as he states.

[James1979]

We finished last season as number sixteen and now we are seventeen, and that is not progress, as simple as that. The cup is a very welcome boost but progress is primarily measured by our league performance over an entire season and not over a couple of cup matches.

However, the most serious issue I have against McClaren is the shift in focus from youth to experienced loan players. Given the financial constraints we are facing we are heavily dependent on developing young players and picking up gems on the cheap. Last year a number of young players had their breakthrough under Holloway. These players are one year older now and should have flourished this season. However, players such as Smyth, Oteh, Chair, BOS and Manning have seen much less game time - very contrary to what I would expect. We have built a team that is heavily reliant on loans or short term signings such as Cameron, Rangel, Wells and Hemed. When they are injured we fall apart like a card house. This simply isn't progress. It is the opposite. These loan players will likely not be here next year and is not our future.

We finished 2017/2018 very well based on a very young team. Look at the team we fielded against Birmingham last year (3-1 win): Lumley, Furlong, Bidwell, Kakay, Freeman, Scowen, Manning, Chair, Eze, BOS, Sylla. How do you think this team would have done under McClaren this season? I bet you would say we would not stand a chance. More than anything this tells me we have gone backward, not forward.

Edit: We are not 17th, we are 18th in the meantime.

But part of what you say just isn’t true. BOS, Chair, Oteh have played more games and we’ve not finished the season. Manning has played quite a few games for Rotherham.

[QPROslo]

I am afraid you are not correct. BOS played 18 matches last season, Oteh 6 and Chair 4. Even though many matches were from the bench, Oteh and Chair started league matches and BOS started quite a few of them.

Oteh and Chair have never started a league match this season and BOS had a rare start this week. Oteh and Chair will obviously not play for us again this season, but I sincerely hope BOS gets more chances as he is our future, contrary to Wells and Hemed. Fair play with Manning though - good move to loan him to Rotherham despite the view of most poster at the time it was announced.

[qprjeff1882]

One of THE stupidest OP's I've ever seen on here. If not the worst.

[qprjeff1882]

We hit a bad run of form and people start crying. We will start winning again people don't worry. All teams go through a bad patch. I think this does highlight one thing. Wells aside it shows the current fit squad as per the players that played last season for us are as inconsistent as last season no matter who is in charge. The majority play better with the loan players around them as our sept/dec form showed. Form and results will pick up. We may be 18th right now but we have 15 games to improve that.

[James1979]

I am afraid you are not correct. BOS played 18 matches last season, Oteh 6 and Chair 4. Even though many matches were from the bench, Oteh and Chair started league matches and BOS started quite a few of them.

Oteh and Chair have never started a league match this season and BOS had a rare start this week. Oteh and Chair will obviously not play for us again this season, but I sincerely hope BOS gets more chances as he is our future, contrary to Wells and Hemed. Fair play with Manning though - good move to loan him to Rotherham despite the view of most poster at the time it was announced.

6 games is quite a few? Also your just twisting stats to justify your argument. What’s wrong with FA cup and league cup games? Are they not competitive 1st team fixtures?

Last season Oteh started 3 games, Kakay 2and BOS 6 and Chair 6. This season I’m pretty certain they either started more or about the same and season isn’t finished.

[1973 ranger]

Why do we keep harping on about this season and last? What did we achieve and where did we finish? We have won at a ground this season that we had never won at before and are in the 5th round of the FA Cup for the first time in 22 years so for me progress has been made and like him or not lets get behind McClaren and stop bringing up Holloway every time a bad performance or result happens.

[Itsonlyagame]

We hit a bad run of form and people start crying. We will start winning again people don't worry. All teams go through a bad patch. I think this does highlight one thing. Wells aside it shows the current fit squad as per the players that played last season for us are as inconsistent as last season no matter who is in charge. The majority play better with the loan players around them as our sept/dec form showed. Form and results will pick up. We may be 18th right now but we have 15 games to improve that.

[James1979]

Why do we keep harping on about this season and last? What did we achieve and where did we finish? We have won at a ground this season that we had never won at before and are in the 5th round of the FA Cup for the first time in 22 years so for me progress has been made and like him or not lets get behind McClaren and stop bringing up Holloway every time a bad performance or result happens.

Completely agree but I unfortunately always seem to take the bait! Anyway, think there’s some sort of game tomorrow I hear....could be a big one?

[1973 ranger]

James. The last two weeks on here have become tiresome about a fascination with a manager who during his second spell could be considered poor. Brentford at home digging his own fans out then his nonsense at Millwall last year as well. Looking forward to going tomorrow and hoping we perform to give us a chance of getting into the last eight of the FA Cup. McClaren is not perfect but he is here and as a supporter I want him to succeed which means so does my club which to me more important than an ex employee.

[Itsonlyagame]

I am afraid you are not correct. BOS played 18 matches last season, Oteh 6 and Chair 4. Even though many matches were from the bench, Oteh and Chair started league matches and BOS started quite a few of them.

Oteh and Chair have never started a league match this season and BOS had a rare start this week. Oteh and Chair will obviously not play for us again this season, but I sincerely hope BOS gets more chances as he is our future, contrary to Wells and Hemed. Fair play with Manning though - good move to loan him to Rotherham despite the view of most poster at the time it was announced.

Oslo, preceding our match with Brum last season, they’d lost 6 out of their last 7 away matches. Both teams had been involved in a gruelling season and had been looking over their shoulders for parts of it.
It was the penultimate match of the season, a nothing match in terms of pressure. Ollie dropped a few players who hadn’t performed at Brentford and against Preston and threw in a few more kids.

It happens time and time again. Young players come in and play without pressure etc, then when they get a run of games and inevitably make a few mistakes with the resultant slagging off from the crowd/manager, they can’t hack it. The odd good performance isn’t enough.
Eze a prime example. Obviously very gifted with a wonderful touch but far from the finished article. As with most other young players they need time in and out of a first team.
When they are playing it’s a huge benefit to have some older experienced heads alongside them. Don’t forget even Ollie had Alex Baptist’s playing last year.

If our younger players learn one tenth from Wells about movement, effort and commitment, for a club he doesnt even belong to, they’ll be a lot better for it. That’s happens on the training pitch just as much as in a match.
If we’d have relied on our youth and not bought in the loans we have this season we would be well and truly fuked, regardless of who managed them. Collectively they don’t cut the mustard. Some never well and some others might do given time to develop, which is what’s happening at their loan clubs.
One thing which never ceases to amaze me is when some fans genuinely feel they know more about the players than the manager, especially a manager with macs experience.

[dogsrrs]

One of THE stupidest OP's I've ever seen on here. If not the worst.

Make you right Jeff it is a stupid op that club has wasted three years of parachute payment of bringing the large amount of shlt player ie Yeni JET Cheri plus a few others that are good players with attitude problems , and a very large quota of complete dross Gobern Gladwin Washington Mackie Perch ect , we should have bought fewer of a higher quality ask your self how many are still here I can only think of Luongo who the club knew he would be missing for up to seven games mid season he should have been replaced last summer , we bought in four good players in the summer but of a senior age that makes it likely to miss games which three have something like fifteen games each mid season , then theres been the BS about a sparkling new stadium then it was dropped one behind the prison and hospital still a fair options now we are going out of W 12 because the council won't cut us a deal on our terms , SMc is doing a good job but anybody has admit it is against the odds , we've all got opinions that team are putting efforts that we will pull out of this slump , but for people that think the club has been well run for the last four years remember opinions die but history makes facts

[YoungR1]

When can you honestly say our club was well run? It's never been well run, more ups and downs than a tarts drawers. I do love observing all the expert opinions when its not going well though, keep it up!